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wrooper
06-06-2010, 12:05 PM
Hi all and thanks for your attention,
I am looking for new head bolts for a 430 MEL in a 1965 Chris Craft Supersport.

I attempted to reuse my old bolts but in trying to achieve 140 ftlbs I broke one and necked another bolt.

I got some supposed grade 8 bolts from Fastenal [41/2",9/16,12tpi]. After doing a little investigation about torque values wet vs dry I had concluded that 110 ftlbs wet approximates the 140 ftlbs specified. The Fastenal bolts stretched and one failed at 100 ftlbs as I worked my way up to the 110 I was planning.

The wet/dry torque idea is scary if you contemplate how inaccurate relying on estimations of friction in the field must be!!!

Anyone shed light on my torquing plan? Even better,anyone have a source/part number etc for replacement bolts?

I am looking carefully at the shorter of the two bolts used for an FE engine as a replacement bolt. Anyone know if this will work?

I have spoken to ARP technical support and they were nearly as useless as the parts counter folks who can only say "we have nothing in the computer for that application"

I have posted this same inquiry on the other MEL board with no response

Thanks again

KULTULZ
06-06-2010, 01:19 PM
FE head bolts are 1/2"-13 shank whereas MEL are 9/16"-12 ?

MEL passenger car 430 head bolts are 9/16"- 12 X 4 9/16" L according to the MPC. (CIVE 6065-C)

The only thing I see close are 429-460 short bolts that are 9/16"- 12 X 4 3/8" L (C8SZ 6065-B) (these may still be available from FORD)

What do you think?

OH!

On torque value. As long as you chase the threads and are sure they are clean (chamfer the top of the thread if possible) a light coat of engine oil should take specified torque. Only with assembly lube would one change torque value (IMO).

Does ARP have a TECH SHEET on torque value? If unsure of adequate torque, re-torque after run-in.

YellowRose
06-06-2010, 01:42 PM
Ever since wrooper registered on the Forum the other day, I have been wondering what his '65 18' Chris Craft Super Sport looks like! Here is what they looked like in the day. Notice that this one has a Lincoln 431 engine in it. Some have GM or Chevy engines. I hope that we can help you solve the problem you are having with head bolts. There is another post that I will relocate that might be of help to you. I will also post another pic of the Super Sport. The boat in this posted pic has a GM 327 V8 in it. In the link, you will get to see a pic of the engine installed, the Lincoln 431. This is said to be the ski boat model used for the Cyrus Gardens Water Ski Shows, and the last wood boat modal design out of Chris-Craft

http://www.ablboats.com/details.php?id=70126 (http://www.ablboats.com/details.php?id=70126)

YellowRose
06-06-2010, 01:50 PM
To get this back on the technical track, William, check this link out where head bolts were talked about. I see that Summit Racing was mentioned and ARP. Maybe something here will help and I will do some more searching in our Search section.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8111&highlight=head+bolts

simplyconnected
06-06-2010, 03:09 PM
William, welcome to Squarebirds. I feel honored to answer your very first post.

140-ft/lbs will CERTAINLY break a 9/16" head bolt. After chasing the threads and using a magnet to pull out any debris, I use STP with a little engine oil mixed so it's not stringy like honey. STP is my personal preference and I have used it on dozens of engine assemblies.

My shop manual says, 430 head bolts should be tightened in three steps:
75-ft/lbs.
85-ft/lbs.
95 to 105-ft/lbs.

I hope this helps. Here's the page from the Ford Shop Manual that covers Cylinder Heads:

Http://home.comcast.net/~simplyconnected//Squarebirds/1960Tbrd-430EngineHead-p55.jpg

May I suggest you buy more grade-8 bolts and try it again using the factory torque specifications. By the way, at the same torque, each 9/16" bolt exerts 1,000-lbs more clamping pressure than a 1/2". - Dave

KULTULZ
06-06-2010, 03:55 PM
I wouldn't try common fasteners again. You need the real thing. Might consider ARP head studs if the heads can be pulled straight up.

You would think ARP would have an open hardware listing by type, size and strength needed. Maybe there is a liability/waranty problem doing it that way.

simplyconnected
06-06-2010, 05:20 PM
...I have spoken to ARP technical support and they were nearly as useless as the parts counter folks who can only say "we have nothing in the computer for that application"...

...May I suggest you buy more grade-8 bolts and try it again using the factory torque specifications...

ARP has good bolts, but they make their REAL money by selling them in kits. Yes, if you look at their catalog, they sell "bulk" bolts (and studs) in sizes UP TO 7/16". I KNOW they sell bigger bolts, because my 351Windsor has 1/2" ARP head bolts.

So, forget ARP. Back in the day, Ford cold-headed their own bolts, depicted by the "F" on each bolt head. Oddly enough, they were grade-6, not grade-8.

Fastenal is only one company; albeit convenient, they aren't the only guys on the block. Tool and Die shops buy grade-8 bolts all the time and NONE of them are ARP.

Call this number during regular business hours: UNBRAKO (in Cleveland) 216-581-3000

If they don't have your bolts, they will steer you to someone who does. - Dave

wrooper
06-06-2010, 07:05 PM
Thanks for all the good info

I was mistaken ,it is the 460 not the FE head bolt that I thought might work. I am going out to look tomorrow now that I have a part # for that bolt. I will run one in to make sure it will work.

I am a little worried about the "shoulder" on the 460 bolt? may interfere with it going completely in but I have been reassured that the shoulder will only cause a snug fit when fully in.

I wasn't able to open one of the boat pictures posted but the other photo of the boat for sale does not look like mine. There are some Chris kit boats that I have seen being called Super Sports. They are plywood hulls. I will try to post some photos after I get it back out of my garage. Mine has mahogany plank construction but is late enough that as a nod to modernity[and the early 60's Cadillac] there are wrap around fiberglass splash rails down each side above the waterline....

Thanks for the manual page. I admit I was relying on BB Ford specs for my 140 ftlbs torque value. Although I must admit the machine shop confirmed this from their book that apparently listed the 430. I know this motor is a Lincoln 430,anyone else have an opinion on torque values? Also, shouldn't torque values relate to fastener diameter? The BB Ford uses a 9/16 bolt....

Thanks again Bill

simplyconnected
06-06-2010, 07:25 PM
...Thanks for the manual page. I admit I was relying on BB Ford specs for my 140 ftlbs torque value...Bill, you may want to invest in any Ford Shop Manual that includes your 430. They are all the same. Just follow the manufacturer's instructions.

Bolts are not hard to find. Any bolt will fail with 40% more twist than the specifications allow. Consider yourself very fortunate that the cast iron threads didn't strip out. - Dave

Edit: Go online and Google "bolt strengths"
I found that a:
1/2"-13 grade 8 bolt, dry torqued to 106 ft/lbs., clamps at 12,770 pounds of force.
9/16"-12 grade 8 bolt, dry torqued to 106 ft/lbs., clamps at 16,375 pounds of force.

More torque does not yield more strength. The REAL objective is to measure stretch. ARP sells a micrometer to use on rod bolts. Torque readings are just a very vague and crude means to get to stretch, because the threads may be upset, dry, different class fit, etc.

wrooper
06-06-2010, 07:29 PM
Interestingly.....
I looked closer at the manual page after printing it out and while I know the engine sits backward in my boat[the fly wheel in front] My thermostat is on the flywheel end of the intake [front of my mounted motor,back of conventionally mounted motor]. As though the intake has been reversed on my boat.

Everybody follow that?

The question is....you will note that the intake manifold gasket blocks the water passage from intake to head at the thermostat end of the intake.

When I disassembled, the gasket was placed to block the passage at the "front" of the motor.

The new gasket in my hand has "front" printed on it.

But in my boat that gasket blocked the passage at the rear of the boat ,away from my thermostat.

Does anyone think the critical point s/b to block the passage nearest the thermostat?

My engine was rebuilt by a vintage boat repair guy back in 1990. He never mentioned this issue but knowing the motor was in backward he placed the gasket to block the passage away from the flywheel and the thermostat.

Hope this is clear enough to start some scuttle#$@.......

wrooper
06-06-2010, 07:35 PM
Thanks again Dave,
I am under the impression that I will be making a mistake to torque at less than 90% of fastener strength. The 9/16 Grade 8 bolt is supposed to take 150 ftlbs according to Fastenal.

My original bolts all torqued to 140 ftlbs except 2 which I determined later were already "necked". One of these I broke and that has led me here......Bill

wrooper
06-06-2010, 07:41 PM
Yellow Rose,
THAT is my boat[albeit at 17'?? and small block] You can see the fins centered in the white paint and wrapping around the stern...

wrooper
06-06-2010, 09:03 PM
Bill, you may want to invest in any Ford Shop Manual that includes your 430. They are all the same. Just follow the manufacturer's instructions.

Bolts are not hard to find. Any bolt will fail with 40% more twist than the specifications allow. Consider yourself very fortunate that the cast iron threads didn't strip out. - Dave

Edit: Go online and Google "bolt strengths"
I found that a:
1/2"-13 grade 8 bolt, dry torqued to 106 ft/lbs., clamps at 12,770 pounds of force.
9/16"-12 grade 8 bolt, dry torqued to 106 ft/lbs., clamps at 16,375 pounds of force.

More torque does not yield more strength. The REAL objective is to measure stretch. ARP sells a micrometer to use on rod bolts. Torque readings are just a very vague and crude means to get to stretch, because the threads may be upset, dry, different class fit, etc.

That's informative but what if the heads require 20,000 lbs of force. When I google torque specs, tables all specify that 9/16 torque limit is around 150 ftlbs. Some tables vary depending upon dry or oiled or plated etc. The stretch you refer to is the quality that keeps the bolts from backing out from vibration etc. My understanding is you need to torque to 90% of limit to get the stretch B

simplyconnected
06-07-2010, 01:26 AM
Here's what ARP says:
"Recommended torque is equal to 75% of the fastenerís yield strength."

If the bolt offers 16,300-lbs before it yields, does it make sense to eat up 90% of it's limit in torque? That only leaves 1,630-lbs before it breaks. Remember, pressures add up.

75% is much more reasonable (especially for a premium grade bolt).

Bill, all I can offer is Ford Engine Engineering Dept. spec's. Maybe the reason you are breaking bolts is because you have deviated from that, but I don't know. Fastenal must know something Ford hasn't found out about, yet.

Here are part numbers for different head bolts:
59/60 C0SZ 6065-A 430-cubic in. (20) BOLT - CYLINDER HEAD-9/16"-12 x 4.28"/4.34" <--This is yours.

68/ C8SZ 6065-A 429 & 460-cubic in. (10) BOLT - CYLINDER HEAD-9/16-12 x 5-1/8"
68/ C8SZ 6065-B 429 & 460-cubic in. (10) BOLT - CYLINDER HEAD-9/16-12 x 4-3/4"
69/70 C8SZ 6065-B 429-cubic in. (20) BOLT - CYLINDER HEAD-9/16-12 x 4-3/4"

Maybe you can get one from '68-'70 that's 4-3/4", cut 7/16" off, and dress the point. - Dave

KULTULZ
06-07-2010, 03:37 AM
Interestingly.....

I looked closer at the manual page after printing it out and while I know the engine sits backward in my boat[the fly wheel in front] My thermostat is on the flywheel end of the intake [front of my mounted motor,back of conventionally mounted motor]. As though the intake has been reversed on my boat.

Everybody follow that?

The question is....you will note that the intake manifold gasket blocks the water passage from intake to head at the thermostat end of the intake.


There is a MEL MARINE SECTION on the MEL ENGINE FORUM. This can be answered there.

I know how it goes on automotive but marine is a completely different subject.

YellowRose
06-07-2010, 11:47 AM
Bill, this might be the Forum that Gary was speaking of, though I do not see a MEL Marine Engine Forum on it as such.

http://ford-mel-engine.com/

There is an interesting thread regarding the 534 MEL as converted for marine use by Seamaster here.

http://ford-mel-engine.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=122

Or maybe this one might help.

http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/

but I think it is the first one, as I see that KULTULZ is on that one also.

KULTULZ
06-07-2010, 11:56 AM
Bill, this might be the Forum that Gary was speaking of, though I do not see a MEL Marine Engine Forum on it as such.

http://ford-mel-engine.com/

I should have been more specific- http://ford-mel-engine.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=296

Ask Chris Craft any marine engine questions.

There is an interesting thread regarding the 534 MEL as converted for marine use by Seamaster here.

http://ford-mel-engine.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=122

Or maybe this one might help.

http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/

but I think it is the first one, as I see that KULTULZ is on that one also.

The 534 was not a MEL, it was a member of the SUPER DUTY ENGINE FAMILY (401-477-534) (Med-Hvy Truck) introduced in 1958 also.

I stopped going over there about a year or so ago.

YellowRose
06-07-2010, 12:13 PM
Thanks for the full link, Gary. Maybe Bill will find the information he needs there. Yes, I saw that about the 534MEL not really being a MEL engine. I can see this coming... Someone will want to pop a 534 into their Tbird for more power!!:eek: We might need to create a new sub-forum.. "The 534 SDE Forum For Squarebirds"!:rolleyes: Lol..

KULTULZ
06-07-2010, 07:28 PM
The SD Series are huge brutes. They were the heavy truck gasoline engines before heavy diesel became the norm.

63-4drpost
06-01-2012, 05:18 PM
There are better bolts than grade 8, some Ford bolts have 6 dashes on them. I figure Ford made the bolt to thier specs, not necasarilly grade 8???? Also, I always add 10% to the torque value specified, just the way I allow for cheap torque wrenches and used bolts. never install a bolt dry!!