PDA

View Full Version : 430 waterpump question


xolyman
01-21-2010, 09:00 PM
There is a hole that is tapped for a 3/8 male flare fitting on the bottom of the waterpump just below the heater hose outlet. Can someone tell me what its for and where it goes to. Thanks. Just about got it in the Bird

tbird430
01-22-2010, 11:49 AM
I'll have to look at mine again when I get back home. I don't remember there being two ports on my original '60 T-Bird pump. Maybe yours is a core off a Lincoln 430cid?

:confused: -Jon in TX.

partsetal
01-26-2010, 03:34 PM
I've checked 6 430 pumps and they all have the threaded hole for the heater hose fitting, and on the opposite side there is a threaded hole for the generator adjusting arm, no other openings except the two main water passages and the bypass fitting. Can you provide a photo?
Carl

xolyman
01-30-2010, 06:24 PM
I took a couple of photos but have no idea how to get them to you. It must be the pypass, but I dont know where it goes.
Claude

Richard D. Hord
01-30-2010, 06:33 PM
Hey Claude,
Go to like you are going to post a comment. Scroll down to manage attachments. Click on that and it will pull up a small screen. Click on choose file and it will ask you where from. Pull up file and hit upload. These can only be a certain size to post!
Richard D. Hord

xolyman
01-30-2010, 07:53 PM
:confused: Richard, I have nothing that says manage attachments. The only thing I can find is the insert image icon. The posting rules box says I cannot post attachments. Am I in the wrong window, or just looking in the wrong place?
Claude

Richard D. Hord
01-30-2010, 08:02 PM
Hey Claude,
I sent you a PM.
Richard D. Hord

simplyconnected
01-30-2010, 11:30 PM
These are from Claude:

"The photo is taken looking up from under the car. The red hose is the heater hose coming
off the left side. the tapped hole I am talking about is directly below that. It’s the one with
the flare nut.
Claude"
Http://home.comcast.net/~Y-Block/Squarebirds/Xolyman/430waterpump.jpg

Http://home.comcast.net/~Y-Block/Squarebirds/Xolyman/430waterpump2.jpg (http://home.comcast.net/~Y-Block/Squarebirds/Xolyman/430waterpump.jpg)

Coral
01-31-2010, 09:33 AM
Thanks for posting those pictures simplyconnected ....
I have sent a PM to you Xolyman....

Howard Prout
01-31-2010, 02:03 PM
I checked the ports on the water pump on my 430 - they are like Carl said. The heater hose connection is on the left side, about 45 deg. toward the left side from the top. There is no port on the bottom of the pump other than the intake for the pump. The pix don't show the water pump intake - where is it? Also, I don't understand the piping going across the front of the engine - any idea what it is for? As I recall you took a 352 out and put the 430 in your car. Where did the 430 come from? Could it have been modified for some other use and now has a custom water pump? Are you sure it is a 430?

simplyconnected
01-31-2010, 04:38 PM
...The heater hose connection is on the left side, about 45 deg. toward the left side from the top. There is no port on the bottom of the pump other than the intake for the pump. The pix don't show the water pump intake - where is it?...
Howard, it's all there. Remember, he took this picture from the bottom, pointing straight up.

His heater hose is right next to the oil filter, on the LH side of the engine. You can't see the water intake because there is a lower radiator hose on it (look at the bottom picture).

I suspect those other lines may be for transmission cooling.

Claude, when you follow the bottom WP steel line, the one in question, where does it go? (I'm afraid to say what I'm thinking.) Certainly, you should be able to follow it somewhere. - Dave

xolyman
01-31-2010, 10:05 PM
I bought this car in buckets and boxes, The engine and trans came on a pallet. I do not know what it is out of, but I think it may be a Lincoln. No motor or trans mounts, no linkages of any kind (made my own). The car was torn down so far the interior and trunk and the top was gutted. they (he) went so far as to take the squirel cage off the heater fan motor. Its been a real mess. It was dissasembled more than any restoration I have ever saw. I have got it running and moving and stopping on its own now. I am missing a lot of parts that were supossed to be there. I thank all who have helped. The two lines are the trans cooler lines. outlet is on the top right and the inlet is below the heater hose in the pic. My ford parts guy could not find any waterpump with a 3/8 fitting on the pump bottom in his books. He suggested I plug it. I did and the pump made a weird noise so I connected it to the Water port on the back of the intake manifold. I think on some cars (lincolns) the heater is routed through that. The other heater hose is on the top right. No other outlets. I think it may be a thermostat bypass. By the way its a two speed forward trans.
Claude

xolyman
01-31-2010, 10:19 PM
One other thing, the only time water comes out is when the engine is running. Comes out under pressure. Doesnt even drip when not running. I am almost positive its a 430, I have looked at a lot of pics of them and they all look the same. Thats what the guy I bought it from said it was. The Ford guy said the 3/8 hole may have been a bypass for a rad. grille flapper. Wish I knew.:confused: Got most of the wiring back in.

simplyconnected
02-01-2010, 12:27 AM
One other thing, the only time water comes out is when the engine is running. Comes out under pressure. Doesnt even drip when not running.
Water comes out? Out of where? Is it leaking out? Explain.

Where is your temp sensor? I would like to see a lot more pictures of your engine. Let's see where all your hoses and tubes are going. I may be wrong (and I hope someone corrects me because I don't have a 430), but it would be wrong to take water from your water pump and run it to the back of your heads.

Water flow starts at your pump, goes through the block, and comes up your heads and into your intake manifold. The thermostat is the last place water exits. Bypassing the block will make the engine overheat.

That heater hose on your water pump is a (cold) return line. The hot side should come from the top of your intake manifold, somewhere just before the thermostat. That's how the water pump can move heater water before the thermostat opens. - Dave

GTE427
02-01-2010, 07:32 AM
If this picture is taken from beneath the engine and those are oil pan bolts I see along side the oil filter, my guess is that you're looking at a Lincoln motor with the Crankshaft mounted power steering pump. I've yet to see a water pump mounted on the crankshaft, are these pictures of a water pump or something other.

Please take another look at the engine and confirm if this is a crankshaft mounted pump.

tbird430
02-01-2010, 05:08 PM
I'm at work right now, so these pics are "blocked" I'll try and log back on tonight when I get home.

Something is definatley wrong though... :confused:

Jon in TX (with 430cid Bird).

tbird430
02-01-2010, 06:40 PM
Here are a few of my 1960 430cid pics:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h137/tbird430/1960%20Thunderbird/NewEngine.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h137/tbird430/1960%20Thunderbird/Detailed430cid.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h137/tbird430/1960%20Thunderbird/Detailed430cid2.jpg

As you can see, there is a seperate front engine timing cover & a seperate water pump housing (just like a 352CID). W/o the correct timing cover, where do you mount the fuel pump on your 430cid?

Yours is a different beast. :eek:

-Jon in TX.

simplyconnected
02-01-2010, 07:11 PM
If this picture is taken from beneath the engine and those are oil pan bolts I see along side the oil filter, my guess is that you're looking at a Lincoln motor with the Crankshaft mounted power steering pump. I've yet to see a water pump mounted on the crankshaft...
Ken, I agree. I am not familiar with a crank PS pump, but steel lines tell me, "high pressure". Now, I wonder if the PS low-pressure return line is that red hose.

Another fact that makes sense is, when he tried to cap the line, it made bad noises. Well, a vane or piston pump would, not a centrifugal water pump.

I still want to see more pictures of Claude's engine. It definately doesn't look like tbird430's engine because I don't see holes coming out of the 430 timing cover. The wire oil pan washers are strange to me, too. - Dave

xolyman
02-01-2010, 08:33 PM
The power steering is on the left side and the lines are black. It is not in the photo. The red hose is a heater hose. You have to remember I got this engine on a pallet with no lines or hoses. The steel lines running across the photos are Trans cooler lines I made. The line that you see with the hex head fitting is the one that comes from the bottom of the water pump. If you take that loose no water comes out, however if you start the engine water sprays under pressure. Maybe I can tie it in to a heater hose. My engine has the same wierd fuel pump on the top. I cant post photos but if someone wants to send me a PM with a email address I can take a bunch and email them to you.
Claude

GTE427
02-02-2010, 09:11 AM
Claude,

I acknowlede that you've installed a belt driven PS pump. With all due respect, because a belt driven PS pump was provided and installed, this doesn't change the fact that Lincoln Cars in the 60's had Crankshaft mounted/driven PS pumps.

From the pictures you've provided of the pump in question, that is a Power Steering Pump that you've connected to the cooling system. The pump is driven by a woodruff key on the crankshaft.

See attached pdf from the Lincoln Land website. Hopefully the diagram will clear this up for you.


Dave, I've seen those oil pan bolt retainers on early 60 Lincoln engines before, do not know the extent of the years they were used. If you have the chance to look under an original Lincoln you should see them, though it may be hard to look under a Lincoln thats not on a lift.

simplyconnected
02-02-2010, 01:39 PM
Yep! Hands down, you nailed it, Ken. Great documentation, too. It couldn't be clearer, that's exactly what Claude has. Thanks for the heads-up on the oil pan 'washers' too. I've learned a lot from this thread.

For sure, you have a Lincoln motor (as you stated earlier), Claude.

Take the water hoses off before water ruins the pump. That explains why it didn't leak when you disconnected the hose; this is a positive displacement pump. Without fluid, it will emit a growling noise. With fluid, it outputs serious pressure (which explains the high pressure hydraulic line). You can put a reservoir just about anywhere and still use this for your power steering. Might as well, it elliminates one squealing belt and looks cleaner. - Dave

xolyman
02-02-2010, 06:30 PM
Ken, Dave and Carl,
Kens right. I finally found and talked to a mechanic that worked for Mercury/Lincoln in the 60's and he told me it is a 430. He said that he is not sure of the two exact years but he thinks in 63 and 64 or 65 Lincoln put a crank driven PS pump in some of the the Continentals. He can't remember why they quit using it but he said they had problems and were prone to leak and maybe thats why. He told me since I had already built the bracket and hooked up the PS with a belt that I should probably keep it, which I think I'll do. Thank god for old mechanics. I think this guy is in his 70's and its going to be a sad day for us all when the only people we can rely on for information wont know anything if they can't look up on the computer. I want to thank you all for your help. :)Now to get the top working.
Claude

63-4drpost
02-07-2010, 03:33 PM
all I see is the P/S hose at the power steering pump.. mounted on the crankshaft.

63-4drpost
02-07-2010, 03:38 PM
no belts to mess with and wear out, were very quiet,
my 58 merc witha 383 had crank driven pump. always tried to figure out a way tto use it as the engine oil pump when we ran the 383 in our 1958 Mercury stock car raer.