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vernz
06-05-2009, 10:18 PM
I need to replace the rear main seal on my 59 J-bird as the first step to get her out of diapers :>). Power steering cylinder and valve are next. Here are my questions:

A search of old posts tells me to go with rubber rather than rope seals - agree?
Is fel-pro a good gasket or are there others I should look at?
This can be done with engine in car and I found some great information for the 352 on doing this. Is the 430 substantially different or do the 352 hints and instructions apply?
Has anyone done this on a 430 and have any hints for me?
I'll do this with a friend who has a auto shop with a lift. He's done old cars and has a sneaky pete that he has used before.....a long time ago.

As far as the power steering cylinder and valve go, is there a preferred source for rebuild kits?

Thanks, Vern

protourbird
06-06-2009, 10:16 PM
Vernz,
The 352 and 430 are different animals. The 430 is a derivative of the "Y" Block while the 352 is an "FE" motor. Fel Pro is a good quality gasket. I have never worked on a 430 so hopefully someone with experience with that engine will answer you.

Howard Prout
06-07-2009, 11:15 AM
It has been so long since I rebuilt my 430 that I can't remember what was involved in replacing the rear seal. I had my engine rebuilt last year but it was done by professionals, not me. I can't imagine that the process is much different for a 430 than for a 352. According to my Parts Catalog, they both use the same seal! When you have the oil pan off, you may want to check the vacuum pump and rebuild it if necessary.

tbird430
06-08-2009, 03:43 PM
I replaced my oil pan & completely detailed the 430cid in my 1960 Bird last year- out of the car. To tell you the truth, I couldn't imagine changing out the 430cid rear main seal IN THE CAR. :eek:

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it is possible. I also bet that both of you will lose some "skin & blood" in the process too. I'd bet you will have to undo the motor mounts & raise the engine up some to get the oil pan off. If your bird has A/C, you will need to watch the transmission bell housing & the black plastic phlenum on your firewall when you do raise the engine. :o

Fel-Pro is a great gasket to use. Good luck.

-Jon

RustyNCa
06-16-2009, 12:53 PM
I need to replace the rear main seal on my 59 J-bird as the first step to get her out of diapers :>). Power steering cylinder and valve are next. Here are my questions:

A search of old posts tells me to go with rubber rather than rope seals - agree?
Is fel-pro a good gasket or are there others I should look at?
This can be done with engine in car and I found some great information for the 352 on doing this. Is the 430 substantially different or do the 352 hints and instructions apply?
Has anyone done this on a 430 and have any hints for me?
I'll do this with a friend who has a auto shop with a lift. He's done old cars and has a sneaky pete that he has used before.....a long time ago.

As far as the power steering cylinder and valve go, is there a preferred source for rebuild kits?

Thanks, Vern

Well I did the rear main on my 58 running a 390 with the motor in the car. I used felpro on it and it seems to have worked for now. I did it with floorjacks only..... I also replaced the main bearings at the same time... yes with the motor in the car, that was fun...

I don't know if the 430 is the same or not, but that was about two years ago, not alot of miles since, but the motor seems fine and the rear main isn't leaking at this point, my main leak is the power steering now.

vernz
06-16-2009, 09:08 PM
Thanks everyone. I'm going with felpro neoprene seals and will do it in the car. My friend who is helping me has his own shop with a lift. He checked with an older retired mechanic who used to do these when the cars were the new stuff on the road and he confirmed the engine in car method. I'll take pictures when I get it done.

Vern

Hawkrod
06-18-2009, 10:45 PM
Vernz,
The 352 and 430 are different animals. The 430 is a derivative of the "Y" Block while the 352 is an "FE" motor. Fel Pro is a good quality gasket. I have never worked on a 430 so hopefully someone with experience with that engine will answer you.

I just read this thread and saw this and figured I should respond as this information is not really correct. The 430 is an MEL and the 352 is an FE and they were both new engines for 58 and both were Y block derivitives to an equal extent, at least as far as basic block design was concerned because that is pretty much where the similarities between these engines and previous Y blocks end. There was a Ford Y block 239-256-272-292-312 and a Lincoln Y block 279-302-332-317-341-368. The 430 and the 352 were a new design and they were designed together and share some common parts. Hawkrod

63-4drpost
06-20-2009, 08:59 AM
I am a Ford Tech with 50 years experiance, not saying I know it all, just want to help if I can. When installing the neoprene rear seal in any Ford engine that originally had the rope seal, be sure to look at the rear main bearing cap. some had a pin sticking up in them to keep the rope seal from rotating. That pin HAS to be removed before you install the neoprene seal!!. Also, the lip of the neoprene seal has to face the front of the engine. I install them flush with the cap and block, no offset, and I put a small dab of silicone where the 2 seals meet. Not by the book, but it works for me. put a small dab of silicone on the cap to block surface also. I found a 59 T-Bird 430 at a local junk yard, Complete, turns and has good compression, for $400.00!!! I got 3 transmission with it.It is going in my son and I 1960 T-Bird, 352 now. we are building a 1959 Daytona 500 replica. John beuchamp won that race, Lee Petty's wife actually ran up to John and jerked the trophy out of his hands!!!

vernz
06-20-2009, 10:01 AM
63-4drpost - Thanks for the hints. My seals and oil pan gasket just came in the mail today, so your e-mail was very timely!

scumdog
06-20-2009, 05:33 PM
If you have a crank that is knurled (has lot of little diagonal lines/grooves machined into it) where the rope seal rubs it is because the direction of rotation of the crank 'wipes' oil back towards the pan instead of allowing it to run to the outside.

Now, I was told that if you replace the rope seal with a neoprene one those grooves will tear up the lip on the seal and the instructions with the seal tell you to put them in with the lip facing IN.

So on my 429 with advice from a buddy who has done this before I put the seal in with the lip facing OUT, away from the pan, this allows it to run on the smooth un-knurled section of the crank. (With all the effort it took to change seals I had my doubts and told my buddy I'd kill him if it leaked oil after I reassemebled everything!)

Oh I (as mentioned by 63 4drpost) knocked out the pin and put a dab of silicone in the resulting hole, I also 'staggered' the ends of the seal halves so that they did not line up with where the bearing cap meets the block face, I also put a small spot of silicone sealer on the ends of the seal.

Never leaked a drop after that. And my buddy is still alive.

Hawkrod
06-21-2009, 12:05 AM
I hate to say this but I think your buddy gave you horrible advice. Neoprene seals run fine on the knurls and when the neoprene seals came out Ford still knurled the cranks. They did not stop knurling until they started making one piece seals. Running the seal backwards will cause a leak but if the oil level is low and the knurls do there job you will only see a film of seepage until the bearings get some wear and then it will start dripping. If you run an extra quart it will usually leak from day one. Hawkrod

scumdog
06-21-2009, 04:15 AM
I hate to say this but I think your buddy gave you horrible advice. Neoprene seals run fine on the knurls and when the neoprene seals came out Ford still knurled the cranks. They did not stop knurling until they started making one piece seals. Running the seal backwards will cause a leak but if the oil level is low and the knurls do there job you will only see a film of seepage until the bearings get some wear and then it will start dripping. If you run an extra quart it will usually leak from day one. Hawkrod

I've a custom built 2 gallon sump with the 'deep' bit at the rear and even at the drags it doesn't leak, there's as much oil film around the front seal as there is the rear.

and that seal has been there for oh, I dunno, 50,000+ miles.

I guess I have minimal blow-by or crank-case pressure of any sort.

I must be lucky!!

Hawkrod
06-21-2009, 11:25 AM
Yup, sounds as though you were lucky. The reality is blow by is a very big part of it and if you built the engine right and treated it right you will have experienced less bearing wear and less blowby and so tolerances remained tight and pressure did not add fuel to the fire. A well built engine will always outperform a "standard" engine in both power and how well it does what it was designed to do so they leak less oil and last much longer. Good for you for doing it right, Hawkrod