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trim code 76
01-25-2009, 02:52 AM
Got another one for you.... My engine is 100% factory original unrestored down to the last detail. I had the original gas tank cleaned and lined (they did an outstanding job). I have a factory fuel pump with the vacum wiper assist top. The carb is the original carb, rebuilt by Pony Carbs in New Mexico(?). They did an awsome job as well. My question is this: I drive the car min. once a month, start it twice a month. A little more during summer when it is it's turn to go to a show. When it has sat for a while, I have a hard time getting it intially started. Goes like this: Pump the gas pedal 2 full times, short crank, 2 full times short crank..............for about 10 or 11 times maybe as much as 14 before it will pop once, then another pump of the gas pedal and it will start and then runs like a dream. I would rather not have to go through this. I do not know if the gas is draining out of the carb or what. If I start it first thing in the day (for going to a show, then start it late in the day to return, no problems, starts right now for going home. car runs beautifuly. Any ideas guys???

JohnG
01-25-2009, 08:54 AM
Can we assume the ignition system is in a good state of tune? (points are clean, dwell is good and timing near on?)
Are the spark plugs gapped properly? (the out of the box settings are way too wide for a stock ignition)

Secondly, is your choke adjusted properly? Could it be a little too open?

You say it runs well when warm or used often so this would seem to rule out a vacuum leak (like you knocked a hose off something while working on it)

Those aside, it sounds like you don't get gas for awhile. If it were my car, I would temporarily hook up my electric fuel pump instead of the mechanical pump and see if that made a noticable difference. (I keep a low pressure electric pump around for all sorts of purposes and have come to value the thing).

If the electric pump made no difference, I would wonder if the float level settings were a little too low.

The main thing I learned from working on these cars was to never take anything for granted.

John

ps You said you had your tank overhauled. There is a little screen in them where the line connects. it is not removable. Do you know how they handled that? Clean it? Remove it?
Just curious...

KULTULZ
01-25-2009, 09:34 AM
The first thing you should do before attempting to start is remove the air cleaner top, open the choke butterfly and manually operate the accelerator and see if shots of fuel are introduced into the venturis. If so, you have fuel in the bowl. If not, you have a leak somewheres or more likely, today's fuel is blended for a completely closed system (EVAP) and will evaporate much more quickly than fuel of say ten or twenty years ago.

The fuel will actually evaporate via the bowl vents on extended shutdowns on a carbureted vehicle.

JohnG
01-25-2009, 10:22 AM
Gary, that's extremely good advice. Using it, he will be able to tell right away if there is a fuel shortage after sitting.

The higher evaporation rate was one of the reasons I came to like the electric pump. I also have a field truck that sits for a long time often, and I got sick of beating up the starter and battery while the mechanical pump slowly moved gas up to the carb. With the electric pump I can just turn the key on for a minute, let it move some gas, and then crank the motor over.

thanks!
John

Dan Leavens
01-25-2009, 10:47 AM
Guys great stuff on suggestions for Greg in the start up problem and all very valid especially, with the new blend of gasoline. I had the same problem on my 58HT last year and it turned out to be bad plug wires that were very old.:eek:

Dano Calgary,Alberta Canada

trim code 76
01-25-2009, 11:30 AM
Thanks for the info guys, I will check the carb this AM and get back to you. The plug wires are brand new , out of the fomoco box, factory items. Had to look very long and hard for them (!-8 numbers on them). Being that the car runs well once started, no hesitations and that it will start up right away after sitting 8 hrs and cooling down I am willing to think that the gas is evaporating. The carb will tell as it has been about a week since I drove it last.

Anders
01-25-2009, 12:49 PM
Mine does the same, but with a Overhauled 390 (401), and new Edelbrock.
I buy that "evaporate" theory right off. ( Da** new petrol, without led and everything...) Makes a lot of sence. Enough for me anyway...;)

KULTULZ
01-25-2009, 01:04 PM
Well, this suggestion is offered in the belief that the ignition and fuel system is in top shape. PERTRONIX II would make a world of difference for all of you guys (IMO).

The electric fuel pump is a very good idea but needs to be mounted @ the fuel tank so as to push the fuel. They are not designed to pull. The mechanical pump (if retained) will act as the pressure regulator.

The filter on the fuel pickup should be replaceable. I do not have that early of an MPC, but the basic part no. is 9A011. If one of you can check your MPC. There is a 5/16" and a 3/8" pickup filter.

BTW- There was a poster on another forum that retro-fitted his car with an early mechanical EVAP (evaporative emissions) System (FORD). Hardly noticeable and it will help prevent this and also gas fume smells (taking into consideration the carb is calibrated properly).

This and a functional PCV System will get you out of the dark ages and make engine life much longer...

YellowRose
01-25-2009, 02:16 PM
When I was having fuel pump/carb problems with my '59 Tbird, it was suggested that one of the things I do (in addition to keeping the vacuum fuel pump in place because it supplies vacuum to the windshield wipers) was to install an electric fuel pump. So I did. It is mounted back close to the gas tank as KULTULZ said. Like JohnG, when I turn on the key, I let the electric fuel pump do it's thing for a minute or less, and crank it over. It chatters when you first turn the key on for a few seconds until it pumps the gas through the system, but that ends quickly. Like KULTULZ suggests, my Tbird also has the Pertronix II system and it works great! No points to worry about wearing or adjusting.

Another thing it does, since my gas gauge is not set completely accurate yet, is let me know when I am getting low on gas. In my case, if that electric fuel pump starts chattering while I am idling, or driving, I know I had better find a gas station quickly. :D

JohnG
01-25-2009, 02:51 PM
I have the electric fuel pump mounted on the fender wall, near the mechanical fuel pump... works fine there.

Anders
01-25-2009, 04:08 PM
Well, this suggestion is offered in the belief that the ignition and fuel system is in top shape. PERTRONIX II would make a world of difference for all of you guys (IMO).

Have that. New spark plugs and a brand new Fuel tank also, since the original exploded...., and fresh filters all over.
I also checked the amount of fuel in the carb and in the lines once ( after my choke "issues..." ), and if the car have sitting for a week, the fuel just seems to disapear somewhere....

trim code 76
01-25-2009, 07:24 PM
Ok, carb pumps gas just fine, so there is no problem with it going dry.....HOWEVER I did find that my choke was open about 1/2" in this cold weather (Garage is not heated right now, too high of gas bill this month). My choke should be basically just about closed now, unless I am missing something. My guess is that is my problem, somehow got out of adjustment. I will have to readjust it in the next couple of days (read the manual, forgot how to...crap). I think that should cure the problem.

YellowRose
01-25-2009, 08:08 PM
Hi TC,

There was quite a discussion about the proper setting of the butterfly when cold and not having been started for awhile. I know that bcomo and I had a number of discussions about this. My butterfly is open 1/8" of an inch when cold. I just went out in the garage, took off the air filter and checked it again. I think that is the recommended setting, but one of the technically proficient guys should be able to verify that. I think Bart's, like yours, was open a lot more at that time.

protourbird
01-25-2009, 08:41 PM
Ray is correct. 90% of carburetors use the 1/8" measurement. A 1/8" drill bit works the best as a gauge. If you still have the original choke you may want to check the bi-metal coil inside the housing and in real cold climates I have seen just slightly rich of 1/8"

trim code 76
01-26-2009, 01:00 PM
With regards to the carb, it was just rebuilt using factory parts. so the bimetal spring should be go to go. My shop manual is a little sketchy on the choke adjust ment. Do I use the black cap (loosing the three screws that hold it down) and make the adjustment buy turning it like it states in the manual or there was some linkage that could be adjusted by loosing up a small srew and nut, pinching the choke plate closed then resecurring the screw. How do you guys do it?? Problem solving is one of the joys of having an old car!!

TChicken
01-26-2009, 02:43 PM
I found when I left my 60 HT 352 sit for more than a week it would start much easier if I gave it 5 or 6 pumps and NOT engage the choke.Of course I live in Florida.Likely different if you live in the GREAT WHITE NORTH like some of us (Dano)LOL

fomoco59
01-26-2009, 03:30 PM
Four good hard pumps of the pedal, then hold pedal down half-way when I turn the key works for me every time...of course it'll usually stall unless I keep revving it. I'm interested to see how (if) mine will start after sitting for a YEAR in May.

protourbird
01-26-2009, 08:00 PM
Yes, you would use the three screws to turn the black cap to adjust.

KULTULZ
01-27-2009, 09:53 AM
When the choke asm. is properly adjusted, one should be able to turn the key to RUN, FULLY DEPRESS the accelerator pedal (this sets the automatic choke), FULLY RELEASE the accelerator pedal, turn the key to START and the engine should start and run on its' own (fast idle).

The calibration sequence should be fully covered in the manual.

Now this is considering proper tune and fuel delivery.

bcomo
01-27-2009, 10:04 AM
I agree with that -- technically.

It would be very interesting to know how many folks on the forum, can depress the pedal one time, and have it start up. :rolleyes: No cheating -- original carb, and no electric fuel pump.

TChicken
01-27-2009, 05:15 PM
Not many I expect could say that.

Penelope
01-27-2009, 05:31 PM
It would be very interesting to know how many folks on the forum, can depress the pedal one time, and have it start up. :rolleyes: No cheating -- original carb, and no electric fuel pump.

Penelope starts first time, every time even after she has been sitting around for 3-4 weeks whilst I am away at the office. She has the original carb and fuel pump. I have always considered myself very lucky to get a car in such sound condition, and the more I read on here, the more convinced I am how lucky I was!

tbirds8
01-27-2009, 06:59 PM
Every time every day. Can't let it sit for more than a week. All stock with a pony carb. rebuild. Runs GREAT! The two feet on the brakes is another issue.

bcomo
01-27-2009, 07:58 PM
OK. That's two so far. Good.

JohnG
01-28-2009, 08:06 AM
Question: Bill (Penelope)... gets excellent results. Located in Australia. Does the gas there have 10% ethanol in it like here??

From what I gather from earlier posts, the current U.S. gasoline has a significantly higher evaporative tendency than it used to have, meaning that if your car sits for weeks, you are working with a near empty float bowl and have to get the mechanical pump to fill it up before any combustion is possible.

If Bill is dealing with different gas, then that is of interest. If not then we need to study his details carefully.

If I'm all wet on this, don't hesitate to say so!

John

bcomo
01-28-2009, 09:38 AM
John:

That would be good to know for cars that have a hard start after a week of sitting. I depends on the particular situation.

In my case, I have a new rebuilt 430 with hard start after 1 day. This problem also existed before the engine was rebuilt.

Fuel bowls are not empty. Good squirts of gas from the accelerator pump. Carb is completely rebuilt with correct metering rods and jets, choked and adjusted correctly, ignition is Pertronix I and new FlameThrower I coil using 12V with good spark at plug wires, new plugs with proper gap. New distributor cap, rotor and wires. Engine vacuum is steady at 18 Hg wth no leaks at carb base. Fuel pump pressure is 5-6 Psi. Timed at 6 BTDC, distributor timing is steady and bushings good, new vacuum unit operating correctly. I'm using Premium unleaded. I even rebuilt a second carb, with the same results.

After 1 day, it still takes 5 to 6 pumps and some cranks to start in the AM. The only way that it will start in the AM without pumping more than once is if I prime the carb with 1/3 a shot glass full of gas ---- my 430 loves lots of gas in the carb.

I've run out of ideas :confused:---- anyone who can solve this gets $50

JohnG
01-28-2009, 11:32 AM
hi Bart
I have a similar set up to yours except a 352. I am in MA so I probably have cooler air temperature than you. Most of the year mine starts with 1 pump and so quickly I almost worry about the transition oil pressure.

If we go to the center of the problem maybe we can figure something out. Only gasoline vapors will ignite. Liquid gas will not. So we have a choke to change the air-fuel mixture and increase the chance of vaporized gas getting near your spark plug.

Some things this brings to mind are as follows:

1) index your plugs. Mark the side that has the open electrode with a Sharpie and install them so the opening is facing your intake valve. Since you have some range of torque that is acceptable, this should be doable. (what gap are you using, anyway?)

2) What is the carb action like?? If we take it as given that we need vaporized gas in the cylinders then the question I would ask is: does the carb produce a squirt or a mist?? A squirt (stream) may be useless.

3) how do you know the Pertronix works well?? I know...it's supposed to, but how do you really know it produces a high quality spark?? Have you watched a spark plug which is laid against the block while the motor is cranked over? Do you have a spare distributor that you could try with a new set of points for the heck of it? (points are still $3-4 and a backup unit is not a bad thing to have around anyway)

4) float levels correct??

That's about all I can come up with for the moment...

John

bcomo
01-28-2009, 12:12 PM
1. I can try to index the plugs. The gap is at stock .036 Should I try to open that up a bit.

2. Carb action produces a good squirt through the accelerator pump nossels. I don't remember ever seeing a mist from an acellerator pump. If it needs a mist, then why would it start immediately when I dump 1/3 shot glass of straight gas into it? It appears to be gas starved.

3. I can try to take a look at the spark at the plug itself. The spark at the plug wires looks good. I don't have another ditributor, but as a last resort, I could change back to points to see if that's the issue.

4. Float level, and float drop is fine. Once it starts, it's good for the whole day, start after start.

Thanks John.

JohnG
01-28-2009, 12:48 PM
hi Bart

* I would leave the gap at .036 as long as the problem persists.

* the rest of what you write suggests you just plain don't have much gas to work with when you are trying to start.
You have played with the choke setting, I assume.

Could you put a see through fuel filter near the carb which would allow you to monitor the flow of fuel from the pump? You could do this without cutting your existing line by adding additional hose (unless you have solid steel line).

Does your carb has a little clear window that allows you to see the gas level in it??

John

KULTULZ
01-28-2009, 01:41 PM
John:


In my case, I have a new rebuilt 430 with hard start after 1 day. This problem also existed before the engine was rebuilt.

Fuel bowls are not empty. Good squirts of gas from the accelerator pump. Carb is completely rebuilt with correct metering rods and jets, choked and adjusted correctly, ignition is Pertronix I and new FlameThrower I coil using 12V with good spark at plug wires, new plugs with proper gap. New distributor cap, rotor and wires. Engine vacuum is steady at 18 Hg wth no leaks at carb base. Fuel pump pressure is 5-6 Psi. Timed at 6 BTDC, distributor timing is steady and bushings good, new vacuum unit operating correctly. I'm using Premium unleaded. I even rebuilt a second carb, with the same results.

After 1 day, it still takes 5 to 6 pumps and some cranks to start in the AM. The only way that it will start in the AM without pumping more than once is if I prime the carb with 1/3 a shot glass full of gas ---- my 430 loves lots of gas in the carb.

Is the accelerator pump set to specs? There is usually a cold ambient temperature setting that delivers a longer stronger shot. You have no doubt that the choke is fully functional and calibrated correctly?

Describe exactly how you start the cold engine.

The engine has a HOLLEY or AUTOLITE? I can't remember on BIRDS.

bcomo
01-28-2009, 02:47 PM
This is the correct number 1960 model Carter AFB on the 60 430 -- the primary and secondary jets are correct, as well as the metering rods. I checked all of them.

The accelerator pump is set in the top hole for maximum stroke as shown in the 60 manual page 3-27 Fig 46

The choke is fully functional, and calibrated correctly as shown in Fig 48 (When choke is fully closed the fast idle screw is aligned with the index mark on the high step of the fast idle cam).

(While depressing the pedal to the floor one time, the accelerator pump gives a good stream of gas from both nossels, and the choke will go fully closed. I can visually see this with the air cleaner off.)

I start the car by depressing the pedal to the floor one time. Turn the key -- and it cranks for 3-4 seconds without start. Pump it again about 3-4 more times, and with foot off of the gas, it will usually start.

I think I mentioned that I also tried a second carburetor from a 59 430 (rebuilt) and the AM hard start still existed.

Penelope
01-28-2009, 05:36 PM
Question: Bill (Penelope)... gets excellent results. Located in Australia. Does the gas there have 10% ethanol in it like here??

If Bill is dealing with different gas, then that is of interest. If not then we need to study his details carefully.

If I'm all wet on this, don't hesitate to say so!

John
Jon, I am using 95 octane premium unleaded and I also put 100ml bottle of upper cylinder lube in each 3rd tank full to replace the missing lead. As far as I know there is no ethanol in our fuel here YET, although it is an often talked about item by the newsreaders.

Hope this helps, I will be back down at the house where Penelope lives shortly and can get any other details then if required.

KULTULZ
01-29-2009, 05:41 AM
This is the correct number 1960 model Carter AFB on the 60 430 -- the primary and secondary jets are correct, as well as the metering rods. I checked all of them.

The accelerator pump is set in the top hole for maximum stroke as shown in the 60 manual page 3-27 Fig 46

The choke is fully functional, and calibrated correctly as shown in Fig 48 (When choke is fully closed the fast idle screw is aligned with the index mark on the high step of the fast idle cam).

(While depressing the pedal to the floor one time, the accelerator pump gives a good stream of gas from both nossels, and the choke will go fully closed. I can visually see this with the air cleaner off.)

I start the car by depressing the pedal to the floor one time. Turn the key -- and it cranks for 3-4 seconds without start. Pump it again about 3-4 more times, and with foot off of the gas, it will usually start.

I think I mentioned that I also tried a second carburetor from a 59 430 (rebuilt) and the AM hard start still existed.

HUH!... Interesting...

Just curious. How is the compression?

KULTULZ
01-29-2009, 06:15 AM
Just another thought-

When you set the choke- (full depression and release of fuel pedal), does the choke plate completely close or is there a small air gap left for air ingestion? I am thinking that if completely closed, it will not start as a result of no air and then when you pump it a few times, air is introduced via the mechanical choke pull-off feature.

(Don't mind me- sitting here drinking coffee aggravating everyone)

bcomo
01-29-2009, 03:48 PM
HUH!... Interesting...

Just curious. How is the compression?

This is my newly rebuilt 430 (done by a good shop) with about 1000 miles on it. Haven't checked the compression.

This hard start issue existed before and after the rebuild.

Leads me now to think that it might be something that I have NOT changed.

The only things that I have not changed is the Pertronix I module, the Pertronix I coil. Those are still the same.

All other things like different rebuilt carb, new fuel pump, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, battery, have been changed.

bcomo
01-29-2009, 03:56 PM
Just another thought-

When you set the choke- (full depression and release of fuel pedal), does the choke plate completely close or is there a small air gap left for air ingestion? I am thinking that if completely closed, it will not start as a result of no air and then when you pump it a few times, air is introduced via the mechanical choke pull-off feature.

(Don't mind me- sitting here drinking coffee aggravating everyone)

No aggravation.

There is a small air gap when the car is cranked, caused by the suction on the choke plate through the carb by the manifold intake. That can easily be varied by moving the hot air mechanical choke from the index mark to the more lean position 1 or 2 notches. I'll try that.

tbird430
02-02-2009, 04:55 PM
Bart's 430cid has a Carter on top.

JohnG
02-02-2009, 08:06 PM
hi Bart

I would consider the following: have a stock, points based distributor in decent condition (good bushings, new points) and try swapping the Pertronix out.

It is probably fine but a) you don't know for certain b) having a backup ignition system around in case of failure is not a bad thing. You get to use the same distributor cap for the test.

Either way you get to eliminate a weak spark as a problem.

John

trim code 76
02-02-2009, 10:15 PM
Hey guys,
I have had to send my carb back to Pony Carb in New Mexico for warrentee work on the carb with respect to the choke. Looks like this was the problem. I would anticipate that was the problem as it always stayed 1/2" plus open and it took many pumps of the gas pedal and cranking to get it to fire. My understanding is that when the choke is closed (plate closed) it causes a vacuum that draws fuel from both the main fuel system as well as from the idle fuel system causing an exra rich fuel mixture. Since the plate was open when it was cold, I could not get this extra rich mixture until I pumped the gas many times. Got this out of the shop manual and it makes sense. I should get it back in about 7-10 days. WIll let you know. By the way, those guys down there are FANTASTIC! My problem was a defective part, not their fault.
Greg

bcomo
02-02-2009, 10:48 PM
Hey Greg: I just saw your post after I posted mine. Same issue, but just an adjustment of the automatic choke on mine to fully closed made a really big difference. (See below).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did two tests this weekend on choke settings.

First, I set the choke 2 notches lean (meaning that the choke would be more open at start-up) That didn't improve the morning cold start.

Next, I set the choke 2 notches rich (meaning that the choke would be completely closed at start-up with no air gap at all). That resulted in a Three pump cold AM start. (much better)

Then, I changed the plug wires to a new set of MotorCraft.

Now I'm down to mostly Two pumps at cold start.

Next:
I found the Pertronix specs on the web for the FlamerThrower I Coil to check it out.

The Primary resistance was fine at 1.5 Ohms from + to -

The secondary resistance from center to - , and center to +, was equal at 9.1 K Ohms on each side on my coil. The Pertronix specs call for 10.6 K Ohms. Looks like I'm 1.82 K Ohms low on my coil.

I'm going to ask Pertronix if that's acceptable, or if that could make a low voltage difference.

SPARK PLUGS:
There were alot of plug options on the "Spark Plugs" post that Ray did, but nothing at the end as to opinions on what were the best two or so.

The Champs F-11Y were stock, but what do you guys think are the best to use? (I can get BF-42, 45, RF-11YC)

I'm using AP-45 Platinum's now, but the electrode is very small. Maybe a larger electrode is better for us.

JohnG
02-02-2009, 11:10 PM
Bart, good work!!!

Pertronix: your resistance is off by about 10%. This also assumes your meter is spot on accurate. I would be surprised if this was your problem but let us know what they say!!

Plugs: I would use the Champions until you get the matter resolved (old rule of thumb: have as few variables as possible). I have been using the AC Delco version of whatever the shop manual recommends and they do very well. I think an "R" in the plug name means "resistor" which to me means less spark so I avoid them (no radio problems either). I also have metal core plug wires for less voltage drop. An excellent spark is always a good thing!

Choke: apparently that has to be done "just right". In the long run, your solution will eventually be the product of determination and attention to detail.

john

KULTULZ
02-03-2009, 10:57 AM
There is much more to a properly adjusted choke than just varying the setting of the choke cap. Please read your shop manual very closely.

As for plugs, copper plugs (non-suppression) should be the preferred type (IMO) as platinum are meant for extremely high voltage output and are very expensive. If one could find MOTORCRAFT BF-42 (with no other PN designation such as R or S, they would offer the least reistance.

PERTRONIX requires full BAT VLT to the module and if a stock coil, resistance voltage to the coil. If a FLAMETHROWER or other hot coil, it will also need full BAT VLT. The instruction sheets are available on the PERTRONIX site.

bcomo
02-03-2009, 11:13 AM
I found some BF-42's listed on E-Bay. I may pick those up.

I have full battery voltage going to the Pertronix coil. Measured both while cranking, and during run.

Regarding the plug wires themselves -- is there any reference to whether the original plug wires were resistor wires or not?

JohnG
02-03-2009, 01:13 PM
The shop manual for my '58 says they are resistance wires designed to filter out frequencies that would be heard on the radio. The resistance should not exceed 24,000 ohms.

bcomo
02-03-2009, 01:25 PM
Thanks John. I was looking for it in the 60 manual in the specs at the end of chapter 2, but finally found it on Page 2-5.

For the 60 it says "Radio Resistance Wires" with no more than 24,500 Ohms per wire.

So, Resistance Wires, with non-resistor plugs --OK.

bcomo
02-03-2009, 01:56 PM
I checked the resistance on the longest wire in the new MortorCraft set that I put on. Checked it with my digital and also my analog multimeter. I get 11,400 Ohms. So that's OK.

So, now the plugs are next.

JohnG
02-03-2009, 03:11 PM
I suppose you could be a skeptic and check the one
from the coil to the cap... if that one is weak, all the others suffer...

bcomo
02-03-2009, 05:02 PM
That wire is new out of the same MotorCraft box also. I could check the resistance, but what would that tell me? I don't have any spec on the coil wire resistance to compare to.

JohnG
02-03-2009, 10:52 PM
Resistance is proportional to length so if a 24" wire has 12,000 ohms (for sake of discussion) then an 8" wire ought to be in the ballpark of 1/3rd of that or about 4,000 ohms.

The specific values are not as important as simply looking for a wire which has unusually high resistance (like 100,000 ohms) or is simply open (infinite resistance)

John

JohnG
02-07-2009, 02:12 PM
I decided to start mine today. Has not been run in a month as the weather has been in the teens. Today is in the mid 30s and I was working in the garage so I decided to let it run for awhile.

I pumped the pedal about 3 times and cranked it over for about 30 seconds before it ran. Ran pretty ratty for the first 30 seconds or so after that. Seemed like it was not getting gas in that period. My choke was completely closed at first. Probably should be open a tad and needs some fine tuning.

I had the air filter off and the hood open. I have a see through gas filter and at first you could see the surges of gas being pumped through it. I wonder if the float bowl was pretty empty due to evaporation (I am in an area with the 10% ethanol mix). I should have looked in the little window first on the side of the carb.

I do have a question for one of you guys who knows carbs alot better than I do (not hard). Once the car starts, isn't the choke - throttle plate supposed to open up some almost immediately?? This is independent of the temperature of anything as it's still stone cold. I have been having problems for a few months with the car running really crummy in the interim between starting and somewhat warmed up. Acts really rich. What can I check or adjust??

thanks!
John

KULTULZ
02-07-2009, 08:16 PM
Once the car starts, isn't the choke - throttle plate supposed to open up some almost immediately?? This is independent of the temperature of anything as it's still stone cold. I have been having problems for a few months with the car running really crummy in the interim between starting and somewhat warmed up. Acts really rich. What can I check or adjust??

This is referred to as the choke pull-off feature. Yours will be a mechanical setting, later engines had an actual vacuum motor to open the valve a pre-determined amount.

You need to read and understand fully the description in the shop manual. The (your) choke pull-off is actuated by the small piston in the actual choke housing from manifold vacuum.

If this feature is non-operable, the idle mixture will be extremeley rich.

Also make sure all choke linkage(s) operate freely. They will become gummed up from filth. Use an aerosol choke cleaner to allow the linkage to operate freely.

Another feature is called the choke unloader. You know this from keeping the accelerator floored while cranking if the engine has become flooded. When the accelerator pedal is depressed fully, you should see the choke valve open slightly. This is also adjustable.

dgs
02-07-2009, 09:10 PM
... a brand new Fuel tank also, since the original exploded...

Whoa, there's a story I'd like to hear. :eek:

It would be very interesting to know how many folks on the forum, can depress the pedal one time, and have it start up. :rolleyes: No cheating -- original carb, and no electric fuel pump.

Mine is all original, I think. Haven't checked but don't ahve any reason to suspect it isn't.

I honestly don't know if that will work on mine, I suspect not. I follow how Grandpa did it. Cold start, I start pumping the gas and don't stop until it starts. After sitting a while, that will take a few seconds to a minute or three, depending on how long it's been. If it's warm, I don't touch the pedal and it starts pretty much immediately.

It always starts, though, even when after sitting all winter and I fail to start it.

JohnG
02-08-2009, 01:24 AM
Gary , thanks for the detailed choke system info! I will do some reading in the manual and find out what's out of adjustment.

Anders: I wanna hear about that gas tank exploding ! (or at least why you are still a member of this forum!)

Now... how long does it take to start?? I ran my 58 today in the garage about 10 hours ago enough to get it warmed up. It is now 38 degrees here and I just went out to start it again. I pumped the gas pedal once and watched the clock. It took 2 seconds to start.

The car has the Carter mechanical fuel pump, a Holley replacement carb that is quite old and rebuilt once, beefed up ignition system, and was tuned up last September a little less than a thousand miles ago. (new plugs, dwell and timing set)

Later on: my '79 Ford F-150 field truck has not been run in over a month. Goes about 10 miles a year hauling stuff around the property. Today it's 44 degrees out (Fahrenheit). I turned the key on and the electric pump ran for about 5-8 seconds. Pumped the gas pedal twice and it started and ran fine in about 2-3 seconds. (this is a 300 cubic inch straight 6). I include this only because the truck had sat so long (it was not used from August 2007 until December 2008 for want of a functional ignition switch. You could lose a bowling ball through the holes in the floors. So it's not exactly pampered.)

John

JohnG
02-15-2009, 11:17 AM
A week later.... Its 28 degrees out and the TBird has not been run since the last time I posted. Pumped the pedal and watched the clock. 3 maybe 4 seconds and it was running.

Think I found the choke problem. It stays totally closed when the car starts and thus gags on too much gas. There is a mechanism on the right side of the Holley near the
setting and if I touch it, the throttle opens up and the car
idles pretty smoothly.

2/21. Been sitting for another week. 22 degrees here. 3 pumps, 4 seconds and its running. A little ragged for a few seconds but fine after that.
john

Anders
02-15-2009, 01:29 PM
Fuel tank story: :o http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4252&page=2

After having the leak, I took it out of the car, so a guy, recommended as he was suppose to be good at this ( " have done plenty without any problem" ),.... could solder it.
Well, after washing it out a few times with water, he took ( not sure about the correct english word here...) that same thing you use for solder with gas, from a tube (?), and put the fire in the hole to be sure.... Bang! And the tank flew quite a distance to be honest, and looked pretty round after that.
He felt realy bad, and tryed to massage it back, and fixed the leak. He didnīt charge me for the job ;)
I ordered a new one from Larrys. Made in Canada as a matter of fact.

trim code 76
02-18-2009, 01:47 AM
Ok guys,
Sorry for the delay, life happens. I just got the carb back, put it on the car, followed the specific instructions on starting the car and she turned right over!!!! waited a couple of days, pushed the pedal all the way to the floor once, cranked and she started right up in an instant!!! Only problem was that the fast idle would not release. Problem was that my heat tube for the carb off the passengers exhaust manifold was blocked, so no hot air to the choke spring to activate it (learning all the time!). Reamed it out and know it works perfectly! The starting procedure is as follows: push the pedal all the way to the floor to activate the choke (with the air cleaner off, you will see the choke plate close). If it has sat for a few days try and crank a short time, if it does not start pump the pedal 2-3 times crank with FOOT OFF PEDAL, if no start, 2-3 more pumps, crank with FOOT OFF PEDAL and it WILL start, if set up correctly. If the car has sat for more time (over a week), then crank WITHOUT TOUCHING THE GAS PEDAL for 10 seconds to refill the bowels (todays gas evaperates very quickly). Pump the gas pedal 6 times then crank WITH FOOT OFF GAS, no start, pump 6 more times and crank WITH FOOT OFF GAS and it will (should) start. The car runs flawlessly now!! BIG PROPS TO PONY CARBERATORS. These guys really know their Ford carbs and do a perfect job on them HIGHLY RECOMMEND!!!!!!!. Deal with John, the owner. Hope this helps!!!!!!!!!!! About time I can help you guys out!!!!
Greg

trim code 76
02-18-2009, 01:58 AM
John,
Call Pony Carburator, ask to talk to John. He is a wealth of knowledge on these carbs and can tell you exactly what is wrong. Should not have to touch the fast idel speed cam to get it to open up the choke plate. Check your heat tube for the carb, ensure it is not plugged (from exhaust manifold to the side of the carb) OR the opening in the manifold where it goes into is not clogged. My understaning is that it is a winding tube that is behind the metal plate on the inside of the manifold where the tube goes into and exits out the short tube that comes out pointing to the firewall). Try blowing compressed air into the tube, then into the opeing in the manifold. the air should come out the other end (on the manifold it should come out the end that has the short tube coming out pointing tward the end of the exhaust manifold. Hope this wordiness helps
Greg

JohnG
02-18-2009, 07:35 AM
hi Greg

thanks much for your information and help!!

John

scumdog
03-05-2009, 03:06 PM
I have full battery voltage going to the Pertronix coil. Measured both while cranking, and during run.

Well I just found out this morning I do NOT have 12-volts to the coil, I guess the original wiring has a resistor built-in?

It was 6 to 8 volts at the coil.

Can I run a wire from the power-window relay that is mounted on the firewall to get an ignition-key controlled 12-volt source??
(This is on a '66, somebody had fitted a Petronix system - with Mexican coil - to it)

Thanks in anticipation of the advice guys!

KULTULZ
03-05-2009, 03:18 PM
Well I just found out this morning I do NOT have 12-volts to the coil, I guess the original wiring has a resistor built-in?

It was 6 to 8 volts at the coil.

Can I run a wire from the power-window relay that is mounted on the firewall to get an ignition-key controlled 12-volt source??
(This is on a '66, somebody had fitted a Petronix system - with Mexican coil - to it)

Yes, but also put an inline fuse in the choke circuit to protect it. Get a PERTRONIX FLAMETHROWER coil as this will be 12V sourced also.

scumdog
03-05-2009, 03:32 PM
Yes, but also put an inline fuse in the choke circuit to protect it. Get a PERTRONIX FLAMETHROWER coil as this will be 12V sourced also.

The 'choke' circuit?

What does that operate??

scumdog
03-05-2009, 05:35 PM
Oh, and my Mexican ignition coil has 'For use with resistance primary wire or external resistor' on it - does that affect things??

JohnG
03-05-2009, 06:00 PM
sounds like you should have a ballast resistor on the firewall unless its a 1960 which seem to have used a resistor wire from the ignition switch to the coil. Either are intended to reduce the current through the points (and hence through the coil)

Do you use points in the distributor or solid state (like Pertronix) ?

john

scumdog
03-05-2009, 06:06 PM
sounds like you should have a ballast resistor on the firewall unless its a 1960 which seem to have used a resistor wire from the ignition switch to the coil. Either are intended to reduce the current through the points (and hence through the coil)

Do you use points in the distributor or solid state (like Pertronix) ?

john

As mentioned about post #59 a few posts back, it's a Petronix, already fitted when I got the car.

Even then the previous owner said "It just needs a good run on the freeway" when I asked why it was running rough..I thought burnt valve or similar but it seems to be plug fouling and I suspect it's caused be bad ignition of some sort.

JohnG
03-05-2009, 07:57 PM
here's my opinion: the coil and distributor components work as a system. They need to be matched. So if you have a Pertronix trigger than you ought to get a matching Pertronix coil. Then make sure and check the instructions on whether the coil should see 12V or have a ballast feeding it. The coil is cheap (try EBay) and easy to install and you can pretty much write off the ignition system (assuming you have a fresh set of wires)

I have a Pertronix trigger and coil in the garage hanging up if you need part numbers.

I would suggest Accel stranded metal core wires for the most spark if you do change wires.

Might as well get all the spark you can! Nothing but benefits.

John

KULTULZ
03-06-2009, 12:00 AM
The 'choke' circuit?

What does that operate??




Oh, and my Mexican ignition coil has 'For use with resistance primary wire or external resistor' on it - does that affect things??

The choke electrical circuit is what initiates the electric choke, the one you are planning on adding. It has a full BAT feed and needs to be fused if there is a short.

The PERTRONIX requires full BAT VOLT. The coil you presently have requires a resistor to reduce VOLT to approx. 9V. Shake the junk coil and get one that operates off the BAT VOLT as does the module.

scumdog
03-08-2009, 12:52 AM
The choke electrical circuit is what initiates the electric choke, the one you are planning on adding. It has a full BAT feed and needs to be fused if there is a short.

The PERTRONIX requires full BAT VOLT. The coil you presently have requires a resistor to reduce VOLT to approx. 9V. Shake the junk coil and get one that operates off the BAT VOLT as does the module.

Thanks for that you guys - I will get the proper coil now and let y'all know what happens.

bte KULTULZ, I'm puzzled re the choke thing, can't recall mentioning it and at present I'm sticking with the factory carb....

KULTULZ
03-08-2009, 05:00 AM
bte KULTULZ, I'm puzzled re the choke thing, can't recall mentioning it and at present I'm sticking with the factory carb....

Forget I mentioned it... Just another seasoned citizen moment. I seem to have them more and more frequently as of late.

scumdog
03-25-2009, 06:26 PM
OK, got new electronic coil (still has the 'old-school look) and mounted it.

Now running a 12V source to it.

Tried the idea somebody suggested of using the power-window relay on the firewall, as I expected it cuts out when you twist the ignition key and you get no juice to the coil while the starter is whizzing over.

Plan B is to have a relay near the coil, run a 12V wire from the hot side of the starter relay to the relay then have the relay activated by the old resistor wire that goes to the coil when you turn the key .

Sound OK?

tbirds8
03-25-2009, 06:36 PM
I have an edelbrock carb. on my 66. I ran the elec. choke wire to the window relay on the key on side. Works fine. Not the coil!

scumdog
04-01-2009, 08:15 PM
Ok, I hooked up a wire from the 'hot' side of the starter relay and ran it down the earthstrap, behind the alternator, across the top of the waterpump below the expansion tank and behind the distributor to the inner-fender on the drivers side.

I mounted a relay on the inner-fender using an existing hole and ran the original resistor lead for the coil over the the relay to activate it when the key was turned.

The relay then allowed 12V direct to the new coil I previously mentioned I bought.

It all worked as planned, motor started just as easily as before but it it dang well still missed and stuttered.

Whipped out the spark-plugs after a run on the open road and (with it slightly stuttereing the whole time, really noticeable under load) and found two or three pretty dark looking and #4 even had a slight oily look about it...hmmm.

Biffed away all the plugs and banged in a set of Champion F11YX GOLD plugs (use to have F9's in it).

Now it runs like a charm, no misses or stuttering, idles smoothly...woooo-hooo.!!!!

bird 60
04-01-2009, 09:32 PM
Good onya Scumdog, you sound like one happy little Vegemite.

Chris... From the LAND of OZ