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CA58Bird
10-08-2008, 10:23 PM
Well for some odd reason the car is dripping antifreeze. It had not done this before, and I have since installed a temporary catch can to mesure the amount. Last Sunday the car dumped about a pint out of the overflow on a 20 mile drive.
Where should we start to look for issues?

LuckyJay
10-09-2008, 12:56 AM
I'd say try not to overfill the system, if it's truly coming out the overflow.

tbird430
10-09-2008, 11:39 AM
I had a coolant leak on my 430cid Bird from an exhaust manifold BOLT!!! I had to remove the lower bolt and apply a high temp thread sealer to stop my coolant leak. :rolleyes:

Have you determined where your coolant is dripping from?

JohnG
10-09-2008, 06:45 PM
those tanks are notorious for developing leaks. Your best bet is to either replace it with a repro (a $200 matter) or take yours to a radiator shop and have it pressure tested and repaired. That does not cure the problem forever but buys you some time.

You could go with a really low pressure cap and put a catch bottle on a hose from the overflow. Not optimal but at least your not dumping the stuff on the road and can put it back in.

john

Bob M
10-12-2008, 04:51 PM
Is you temp. gauge going up more that it used to, mine runs between the M & P if yours is running hot you might change the T-Stat, also you might put on a new Rad. Cap. and are you sure that it is leaking out the drain hose.

Howard Prout
02-12-2009, 07:40 AM
I have a similar problem and haven't been able to resolve it to my satisfaction as yet. I would really like the temp gauge to sit on the E or lower. I've had the water pump rebuilt and I've had the rad recored with a triple core but it still runs hot. I even tried repacing the temperature sending unit as the gauge seemed to registering higher than heat guns indicated. It got worse after I had the engine rebuilt last year but then I discovered that they installed a 195F thermomstat. I replaced it with a 160F thermostat and now it is better (the needle on the temp gauge sits on the M most of the time) but still gets very hot (at the top of the P) in stop and go traffic on a hot day (over say 90F). When it gets that hot, I lose coolant through the overflow due to expansion.

Has any one had any luck with a six blade fan? Also I see a fan shroud advertised for 58-60 TBirds -I think they were designed for the 352. Has anyone tried one of these on a 430??

YellowRose
02-12-2009, 11:25 AM
Hi Howard,

Some members have gone the six bladed fan route to help the problem of overheating. My 352 has a five bladed fan and I added the fan shroud to it. I think the fan shrouds on the Bulletbirds and big Fords of those years will also fit on the 430 engine with some modifications. I think Bart~bcomo can tell you about that. I do not know how many 430 owners have added the metal fan shroud. I think that Bart still has a metal fan shroud that he has yet to put on his 430. You might contact him to see if he is interested in parting with it. He might be. They certainly seem to help.

The other thing you might consider is checking to see if your temp gauge is reading to high. There is an adjustment on the back of the meter where you can lower or raise the indicator. There is a Technical Tip on how to do this that Alexander created some time ago. Unfortunately, it is not working under the Technical section on the Main page because the graphics were lost. It is one of the things skyd is working on to fix. However, I was able to get copies of the missing graphics files and put them and other Technical Tips on Fortune City until skyd gets the main section fixed. You can find that information here.

http://squarebirds.fortunecity.com/Technical/master.htm

Click on the link to the 1958-1960 Tbird Gauge Calibration. The pictures will be there. As I recall the bottom two holes are for the adjustment of the temperature reading. The top two for the fuel gauge settings. Read the bottom notes on this page also..

On the Master page you will also find an article regarding fan shrouds. It is here.

http://squarebirds.fortunecity.com/Technical/shroud.htm

Some people have used the Dearborn plastic shield. Others prefer the metal shield. Mine came off a '63 Galaxie and works well. It was put on with the radiator in place. As I recall, the bottom tabs had to be moved over also to mount the bottom part of the shroud properly. I found mine on eBay. Read the notes regarding these shields at the bottom. Once again, Alexander did the work for us on using these fan shields. Many swear by them, including myself.

Good luck!

tbird430
02-12-2009, 02:31 PM
I found a metal fan shroud off a big block 1961-63 Ford Galaxie & installed it on my 430cid Bird. I had to drill out the 4 spot welds on the the 2 lower mounting brackets then measure my lower radiator support holes. I then pop-rivoted these 2 brackets back onto the lower half of the metal fan shroud. I simply drilled to new holes on the top radiator bracket & used 2 short bolts to hold the upper fan shroud half on. I then repainted my shround black & installed. Everything else cleared just fine.... :cool:

Howard Prout
03-04-2009, 07:43 AM
... I had to drill out the 4 spot welds on the the 2 lower mounting brackets then measure my lower radiator support holes. I then pop-rivoted these 2 brackets back onto the lower half of the metal fan shroud... :cool:
Do you happen to remember the spacing you used for the lower brackets? I now have a metal shroud and would like to get it ready to instal before hand. Thanks.

tbird430
03-04-2009, 12:31 PM
I don't remember what the exact measurement was, sorry. :rolleyes: I just raised my T-Bird, then crawled under and measured the width of the two lower radiator mounting bolts (in the lower front crossmember). Those are the two I used to remount the metal shroud...

-Jon

Howard Prout
03-04-2009, 04:12 PM
Thanks Jon. I guess I will do the same thing.

Howard Prout
03-05-2009, 09:16 AM
I measured the distance between the rad mounting bolts on my car at 22 3/16". The shroud is 23 1/4" wide which means that the mounting brackets have to be moved out to the very edge of the shroud. Since the shroud narrows into points at the outside edges, there is nothing to attach the brackets to at those points. So it looks like I will have to weld pieces of 14 ga. steel along the lower edge of the shroud and then weld the brackets to the new pieces of sheet metal. Is this what others have done?

KULTULZ
03-05-2009, 09:56 AM
Well for some odd reason the car is dripping antifreeze. It had not done this before, and I have since installed a temporary catch can to mesure the amount. Last Sunday the car dumped about a pint out of the overflow on a 20 mile drive.

Where should we start to look for issues?

Is the coolant coming directly out of the overflow tube or is there a pressure leak in the system? Have you pressure checked the system? Have the radiator cap relief pressure checked also. When you fill the cooling system without overflow bottle (closed system), coolant level must remain at approx. 1" below the filler opening to allow for coolant expansion.

tbird430
03-05-2009, 12:17 PM
No I didn't do that much fabing to make the metal shroud work on my '60 Bird. It seems like I maybe moved the lower fan shroud "arms" or brackets out approx. an inch on each side & then re-rivoted them. I then used the 2 existing lower radiator mounting bolts to secure the bottom 1/2 of the metal shroud to the lower front crossmember.... :confused:

It sounds like the shroud you have is slightly smaller in exterior demenisions than mine is. Mine was removed from a 1963 Galaxie with a 390cid & A/C. Maybe our 430cid Birds have a different radiator lower mounting flange than the 352cid Birds? We need someone to measure the width of these lower front crossmember rear radiator mounting holes I'd guess to make this conclusion "stick" though. :o

Howard Prout
03-17-2009, 08:07 AM
A while after I brought old Betsy home from the shop the other day, I noticed a pool of coolant on the garage floor - it appeared to come from the expansion tank overflow. The TEMP gauge never went above the lower leg of the "M". When I checked the coolant level a few days later, the expansion tank was totaly empty. The original puddle had dried up and there was no additional coolant on the floor. It took more than a quart of coolant to bring the level up into the expansion tank (ie. just into the tank, not to fill the tank). I haven't checked the rad cap but I think it is OK. This is not a new problem but rather one I have had for some time. Any suggestions about how to deal with this issue?

KULTULZ
03-17-2009, 09:40 AM
I haven't checked the rad cap but I think it is OK.

Have your cap tested for relief pressure- 14# and insure the cap gasket has no tears and seats fully against the expansion tank filler tube stop.

When coolant cools, it contracts. The filler cap will open enough to allow outside air to enter to equalize the pressure within the system. This injested air will be burped (yes, I have a limited vocabulary) once the system is again at full operation temperature (coolant expansion). This continual cycling may introduce air pockets within the cooling system that are hard for the system to expell. The only true way to prevent this is to install a closed overflow bottle whereas it will accept the overflow and allow coolant makeup without exposing the system to the atmosphere (this is after ascertaining the cooling system has no leaks).

You may also be experiencing shut-down heat soak whereas the coolant cannot rid itself of heat immediately as it is no longer circulating. The relief pressure of the cap allows release of this increased pressure. The overflow bottle will also handle this.

There is an early seventies overflow bottle offered that will appear as somewhat correct in an earlier installation.

Howard Prout
03-17-2009, 04:16 PM
The only true way to prevent this is to install a closed overflow bottle whereas it will accept the overflow and allow coolant makeup without exposing the system to the atmosphere (this is after ascertaining the cooling system has no leaks).

There is an early seventies overflow bottle offered that will appear as somewhat correct in an earlier installation.

Great idea - I don't know if I would ever have thought of that. Thanks

KULTULZ
03-18-2009, 10:59 AM
This is a Universal Coolant Recovery Bottle-

http://www.dormanproducts.com/images/items/hwrap1/603-001-007.jpghttp://static.atechmotorsports.com/global/images/prod/large/rnb-603-001_w.jpg

Source- http://www.dormanproducts.com/cgi-bin/vm91corp30r/item-dtl.w?sid=eWhiWkadbkqUVnPw009547730455802962&clt=hwrap1&item=603-001&vtime=38933

Measurements- 7.5" X 4.2" X 8.2"

You can cruise the salvage yards to see if you can find one that fits more nicely, but this should prevent the discharge. It shouldn't detract from the engine compartment appearance too badly.

Howard Prout
03-18-2009, 11:15 AM
Thanks for the info. By my calculations, that bottle holds just over one US gallon - which should be more than enough. I see that JC Whitney also has a couple of universal coolant overflow bottles. I'm going to take my battery out and measure the space I have below it and then visit a salvage yard to see if I can find anything that will fit. If so, I could tuck it away into an innocuous space.

KULTULZ
03-18-2009, 11:47 AM
Howard,

The one shown is 11-12 bucks on the internet. Check AMAZON.

GTE427
03-18-2009, 12:39 PM
Howard,

look at this thread for additional ideas for a period correct looking system that have been done by others.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5211&highlight=coolant+recovery

GTE427
03-18-2009, 04:16 PM
Howard, be sure to look at all the links. Alexendar posted links for the chrome cylinder style overflows commonly found on Street Rods. After seeing the pictures of your engine compartment, the chrome overflow will look right at home in your car. Lots of options out there.

Howard Prout
03-18-2009, 04:52 PM
I obviously missed some key words when I tried to search this topic. I thought there must have been a lot of traffic on this topic given the prevelance of cooling problems with these vehicles, and now I see there has been. Some of the initiatives have been very interesting.

I'm still testing my system. At least part of my problem may have been related to refilling the system after having had the rad out to instal the fan shroud. I don't think I got all of the air out of the system initially - but I think I do now. At least I am no longer getting any overflow when I bring the engine up to operating temperature and then let it cool down. But I haven't road tested it yet.

After some more thought, I don't think putting the recovery bottle under the battery is such a good idea. I like the idea offered by others of the front left corner. But I don't think I have enough room there given the proximitry of the P/S pump and the A/C compressor. It may be that a 352 leaves a little more room in the area than a 430. Also it would be a bit awkward running a line to there from the expansion tank. At the moment I am thinking about mounting the recovery bottle out in the open on the right inner fender behind the solenoid.

YellowRose
03-18-2009, 06:17 PM
Hey Ken!

I spent about an hour going through the posts that Alexander made over the years. I did not see anything on a chrome cylinder style overflow tank! But then again, after looking at 14 pages of postings by Alexander, my eyes are going around in circles. If you have the link to it, please post it!

For the newer members, and us older ones also, if you are looking for a particular subject to get information on, click on Alexander's name in any post that was started by him. Click on Posts by Alexander and you will probably find every subject one could talk about regarding our Tbirds and then some! They are listed by subject he was talking about, and they go on for 14 pages! Get a cup of coffee because there is soooo much to learn from him, even though he is no longer physically with us. He lives on in his Words of Wisdom he left us with.

Howard Prout
03-18-2009, 07:13 PM
Here are two of the links provided by Alexander.

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Products/491/

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=400304+303017&autoview=sku

I think they are actually polished aluminum, not chrome plated. If you search through Alexander's posts on this topic (coolant recovery)you will find one with three links in it. The above are two of those links. The third link is no longer active.

Howard Prout
03-20-2009, 11:36 AM
I visited a number of recycling yards yesterday and found a nice coolant recovery bottle on a Honda Odyessy but the guy wanted $50 so I declined. I eventually went to CarQuest and they had a nice unit sitting on the shelf for $20. It only holds 1.5 US quarts, but I think that is enough. As you can see it tucks into the front LH corner rather nicely. If you look closely at the middle picture you can see the hose coming from the expansion tank, it crosses behind the A/C compressor and into the bottom of the recovery bottle. The overflow line from the recovery bottle runs down the left side of the rad. I secured the bottle to the left hood hinge spring housing with a long worm style hose clamp - so no holes had to be drilled, etc. Now I have to wait and see what happens when I road test it.

Howard Prout
03-29-2009, 11:23 AM
As a tinkerer I often seem to have misadventures. My wife takes this in stride and repeatedly says to look for the simple things first. She is usually right, and she was again on this issue. After installing the coolant recovery system, I still had a coolant leak - in the same area as before below where the overflow tube from the expansion tank had been - but that could no longer be the cause because the overflow hose is now on the other side of the radiator. On closer examination I discovered that the bottom of the hose from the expansion tank to the radiator was wet at the expansion tank end. The clamp seemed to be tight but I moved it slightly and retightened it and voila, no more leak. The moral of the story - recheck the simple things first!

Howard Prout
08-17-2009, 07:49 PM
The warm days of summer have finally arrived here in the great white north. I had took Old Betsy over to Midas (about 8 km or 5miles away) this afternoon to see about getting new mufflers installed - the guy said he could do it but probably with a number of modifications - not what I wanted to hear. Anyway, after I got home, she was very hot to the point that the coolant was boiling in the overflow reservoir! The ambient temperature was about 32C (say 90F). I don't know what to try next. The engine was completely rebuilt last year so it should be clean, the rad (triple core) was cleaned at the same time, I have a five blade fan and a fan shroud. Any suggestions?:confused:

Richard D. Hord
08-17-2009, 08:29 PM
Hey Howard,
What temp thermostat are you running?
Richard D. Hord

bird 60
08-17-2009, 08:34 PM
Hi Howard,

The two things that I would look into first is the Thermostats. The Cap & the one between the Reservoir & the Block.

Chris....From the Land of OZ.

JohnG
08-17-2009, 08:53 PM
Howard:

What was temp gauge reading before you stopped?

What is the rating on your thermostat??? Usually 160 or 185

What is the pressure rating of your expansion tank cap?? (13 or less?)

Aside: did you guys know that the reason a thermostat Opens is because a block of wax melts and expands? The external spring is what closes it. I never knew that until recently....

simplyconnected
08-18-2009, 02:27 AM
...after I got home, she was very hot to the point that the coolant was boiling in the overflow reservoir!...

What?
Please don't tell us bubbles were coming out.
Howard, could you tell us a little more about this?
- Dave

Howard Prout
08-18-2009, 06:39 AM
What was temp gauge reading before you stopped?

What is the rating on your thermostat??? Usually 160 or 185

What is the pressure rating of your expansion tank cap?? (13 or less?)

Temp gauge was at "P", themostat is 160, cap is 13psi.

The coolant had expanded to flow from the expansion tank into the overflow reservoir - where it was literally bubbling! After it cooled down, the overflow reservoir was empty and the coolant was back in the expansion tank.

tbird430
08-18-2009, 09:23 AM
I think you need to invest in one of those laser heat guns. The kind you can point and click to get a temp reading- esp. since you have a 430cid bird. :cool:

Do you know if the 2 smaller thermostats were reinstalled or replaced behind each waterpump "ear" to the block?

Are we sure these bubbles were not just air being pushed from the stock expansion tank into this add-on overflow resevoir?

-Jon

Richard D. Hord
08-18-2009, 11:27 AM
Hey Howard,
Where is the water level when she cools off, in the surge tank after puking? Try running her again and not add any more water, see what she does. WATCH TEMP GAUGE!!!
Richard D. Hord

Howard Prout
08-18-2009, 07:28 PM
Where is the water level when she cools off, in the surge tank after puking? Try running her again and not add any more water, see what she does. WATCH TEMP GAUGE!!!

The coolant level in the expansion tank after the engine cooled down was about the mid point of the expansion tank which is where it usually is when the engine is cold. The coolant that had gone into the overflow reservoir was all sucked back into the expansion tank.

I don't have much faith in the temperature gauge as it has had some misadventures but it probably still gives a ball park reading. Yesterday was the first time this year that it went above the first leg of the "M" on the TEMP gauge.

The auxilary thermostats are not installed in the engine - I don't think they are still available.

In case some of you may have misunderstood, I drive "Old Betsy" most days - primarily to the golf course - about 8 miles each way with a five hour rest between trips. I don't have the exact number but I have probably put close to 1000 miles on her this summer. Yesterday's experience was the first time on what may be considered a "hot" day ,at least by our standards, since installing a 160F thermostat and the fan shroud. I thought the problem had been overcome by these changes- but alas, that is not the case. This isn't a new problem but existed for several years before I had the engine rebuilt. It appears that the solution is to not drive her on "hot" days.

tbird430
08-19-2009, 10:18 AM
Are you running a 50/50 mix of "maintained" green coolant & distilled water? Remember regular green coolant breaks down after 40-50K and/or every 3-5 years. :o

If so, you might try a couple bottles of a solution called "Water Wetter", it might help remove some more of the heat from your big 430cid engine. :cool:

Those 2 smaller thermostats haven't been made for years but do pop up from time to time on Ebay. They are really not needed though, unless your Bird's heater could use some more WARMTH in the cold winter months. I don't have them in my 430cid Bird either.

-Jon in TX.

Richard D. Hord
08-19-2009, 04:58 PM
Hey Howard,
When was the last time the radiator was flushed? If that does not correct the problem I would suggest removing the radiator, taking it to a radiator shop and having it professional cleaned.
I had a older camper that did the same thing. I finally got tired of it, took the radiator out and had it cleaned. He told me it was working at 50% of what it should. It was a 460 engine and I never had any more trouble out of it!
Richard D. Hord

Howard Prout
08-19-2009, 07:39 PM
Hey Howard,
When was the last time the radiator was flushed? If that does not correct the problem I would suggest removing the radiator, taking it to a radiator shop and having it professional cleaned. Richard D. Hord

The engine was rebuilt last summer. At that time the radiator (triple core) was cleaned by a rad shop and the water pump was rebuilt - the circulation as seen in the expansion tank is good. I am running with a five blade fan and have a fan shroud.

The ambient temperature was about 80F this afternoon when I drove home from the golf course. The TEMP gauge sat between the E and M, even after idling when I stopped at the mailbox. The problem seems to only occur when the ambient temperature is over 90F with high humidity.

bcomo
09-10-2009, 12:01 AM
Hi Howard:

I just think it's the nature of our 430 to run hot when the temp gets over 85.

I have a similar situation -- engine completely rebuilt and has about 800 miles. Radiator disassembled boiled out/rodded and rewelded together. Thermostat is new 160, with 13 psi cap, no head thermostats. Using 50-50 antifreeze with Water Wetter. I do not have a fan shroud.

I calibrated the temp gauge using a candy thermometer in the surge tank, and a laser temp gauge on the manifold temp sensor. At normal operation temp (about 212 degrees engine temp) the instrument temp gauge is on the middle of the M.

Driving in 80 degrees is OK.

Driving in 85 is OK unless traffic is stop and go; in which case the temp gauge will climb to just below the P.

Driving in 90 depends on constant flow of air through the radiator. If there is stop and go traffic or traffic lights, and airflow to the radiator is weak, the temp gauge will climb to the top of the P -- and then I pull over, let her cool down, and wait for the traffic to speed up.

I haven't had overflow problems. But anymore, if it's over 80, I just won't drive it unless it's a fun drive in the early AM.

Howard Prout
09-16-2009, 04:37 PM
...I just think it's the nature of our 430 to run hot when the temp gets over 85...

I do not have a fan shroud...


Hi Bart:
The reason you don't have a fan shroud is because you sold the one you had to me! Thanks.

A contributing factor to my overheating problem is, as can been seen in the attached photos, the number of parts that are chrome plated, including valve covers, valley cover, expansion tank, timing chain cover, air cleaner, oil pan,etc. The chrome plating reflects the heat back into the engine rather than letting it dissapate via radiation. The engine compartment is in need of a good cleaning after a summer of activity.

Howard

Richard D. Hord
09-16-2009, 05:11 PM
Hey Howard,
Man your engine compartment is gorgeous!!!
Richard D. Hord

Dan Leavens
09-16-2009, 05:45 PM
Howard is that a Petronix I see in the pic:confused:

Howard Prout
09-16-2009, 07:09 PM
Howard is that a Petronix I see in the pic:confused:
No, stock ignition.

65cobra03
09-17-2009, 01:34 PM
Hi
My 1960 conv w/430 had an aftermarket temp controlled electric fan installed on the front of the rad. On hot days at an idle temp will go up but not enough to expand coolant & gurgle out the over flow I keep a bare minimum in the expansion tank "cold" & run a 13 lb cap the fan seems to nicely keep the temp down at a reasonable level
BEN

Howard Prout
09-17-2009, 04:01 PM
Hi
My 1960 conv w/430 had an aftermarket temp controlled electric fan installed on the front of the rad. On hot days at an idle temp will go up but not enough to expand coolant & gurgle out the over flow I keep a bare minimum in the expansion tank "cold" & run a 13 lb cap the fan seems to nicely keep the temp down at a reasonable level
BEN
I'ver thought about doing that but didn't think an electric fan would fit in the space between the A/C condenser and the grill braces. I'd like to see a picture of your fan installation, if possible. Does your vehicle have A/C?

65cobra03
09-20-2009, 11:03 PM
Hi Howard
Will be happy to send you pic's but i am still in my NY home & the t-bird is in marco isle fl Will be migrating south mid Nov.
Yes my car has factory air w/430 a rare option on a convertible This fan unit had been installed when i bought the car. It has an adjustable remote thermostat mounted on inner fender panel that can turn the fan on at a desired temp. Will contact you when i get settled in
BEN

Dakota Boy
12-26-2009, 06:58 PM
The poor man's catch can:


http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/kari_D/DSC01839.jpg



Soon to be replaced with a chrome unit after the battery is moved to the trunk.