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Tbird1044
09-30-2017, 10:27 PM
I took the front part of my engine apart today, to check things like the harmonic balancer and water pump. Like most Fords, I was running hot when it idled
. Got the water pump off and pulled the back cover to check the condition of the impeller, and it looked great. No problem. Then I removed the harmonic balancer, and aligned it with the new one, and the timing marks were right on. The only thing I did find, was the timing indicator, that is spot welded, to the timing chain cover, is only spot welded on the top side of the indicator. Since it is an "L" shaped bracketed indicator, it is very easy to bend or move the indicator which can greatly affect your timing. Since I read a lot of posts indicating that you can retard or advance you timing a couple of degrees, this seems to be a place to really consider. I was advancing my timing significantly, from factory specs, and wondered what was going on. Now, I think, that it was the timing indicator being bent showing timing much later than it actually is. Just wondering if anyone else has come across this?

When I go back together, I will make sure the timing indicator is securely fastened to the timing cover, so it can't be bent or misaligned, so I can get an accurate timing of the engine.

These are things I didn't look at 20 years ago when I rebuilt the engine.
P.S. The rebuild now has 156 miles on it. ;-)
Nyles

JohnG
09-30-2017, 11:38 PM
a thought might be to determine where your true TDC is and then establish a mark accordingly.

This is sometimes done by drilling out a sparkplug and putting a rod down to contact #1 piston, and then slowly rotating the motor by hand.

Once that is established, then you can decide if you want to set your timing at idle, or at full advance.

john

Tbird1044
10-01-2017, 12:21 AM
Been there, done that. Since the engine is freshly rebuilt, it is really tight and hard to turn over. Now that I have the front end apart, I might make a second attempt to verify TDC.
Nyles

simplyconnected
10-01-2017, 04:53 AM
...Since the engine is freshly rebuilt, it is really tight and hard to turn over...A freshly rebuilt engine should have no problem turning by hand with a socket and long handle (breaker bar).

What did you set your bearing and ring clearances to? - Dave

c4clewis
10-07-2017, 05:45 PM
A freshly rebuilt engine should have no problem turning by hand with a socket and long handle (breaker bar).

What did you set your bearing and ring clearances to? - Dave

Take out all the spark plugs and then you donít have to fight the compression.

BEVS BIRD
10-07-2017, 09:53 PM
SETTING TIMING WITHOUT A TIMING LIGHT...i assume you have checked TDC #1 cyl ..THIS HAS ALWAYS WORKED FOR ME..make sure no vac leaks around carb ..Hook your VAC ADVANCE to MANIFOLD VAC..{THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THESE ENGINES PERFORM}.not to ported carb hookup....install vac guage and adv timing til guage gives highest reading at idle... and then retard just enough to see needle move back....re-set idle and carbs jets... recheck timing by moving distr,,double check idle and jets...reset as required...road test for pinging and retard if pinging . maybe a little more advance...double check hot start... retard abit if required....This way eliminates the age old TIMING POINTER bent or missing etc...It also sets the timing to where the engine wants it..taking into consideration eng wear etc....Once you do it you will throw away your timing light....Hope this is some help CHEERS TERRY

scumdog
10-08-2017, 12:23 AM
SETTING TIMING WITHOUT A TIMING LIGHT...i assume you have checked TDC #1 cyl ..THIS HAS ALWAYS WORKED FOR ME..make sure no vac leaks around carb ..Hook your VAC ADVANCE to MANIFOLD VAC..{THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THESE ENGINES PERFORM}.not to ported carb hookup....install vac guage and adv timing til guage gives highest reading at idle... and then retard just enough to see needle move back....re-set idle and carbs jets... recheck timing by moving distr,,double check idle and jets...reset as required...road test for pinging and retard if pinging . maybe a little more advance...double check hot start... retard abit if required....This way eliminates the age old TIMING POINTER bent or missing etc...It also sets the timing to where the engine wants it..taking into consideration eng wear etc....Once you do it you will throw away your timing light....Hope this is some help CHEERS TERRY

Good post, it sums up my experience with timing!
And my opinion re manifold vacuum.

IMHO: I believe if the motor just pings a little under heavy load you're pretty much on the button with your timing.

Tbird1044
10-08-2017, 12:52 AM
I made a piston stop tool and verified TDC using that. I put a new harmonic balancer on the car and everything was right on. BTW, I compared the old balancer to the new one, and the timing marks lined up, so the outer ring of the old balancer had not moved.
I then pulled a valve cover to check valve timing and again the valve overlap was right on using TDC mark.
I also tightened the timing pointer so it doesn't bend away from the timing cover and should be more accurate.
Prior to the latest teardown, I think I was running about 10-12 degrees advanced, so when I get her started up, I'm going to see where the timing is now. Never moved the distributor, so it should repeat, except for fixing the timing marker.
The old Autolite 4100 does not have a ported vacuum port, so you have to use manifold vacuum.
The car was running pretty good, prior to this last teardown, but I was having temperature problems when the car idled. I also changed the water pump and am putting a 6 bladed fan on. I had previously replaced the thermostat and installed a fan shroud. I took the backing plate off of the old water pump and everything looked fine. No visible erosion or wear on the impeller.
We'll see how she acts when I finish getting it together.
Nyles

simplyconnected
10-08-2017, 04:44 AM
I want to shed a few 'truths' on this subject.
Pick an engine... Let's say it's a 390 just for example. Ford put the 390 in heavy cars, trucks, marine, construction equipment, industrial generators, etc. My point here is, although the engine is the same, the service is quite different and so are the corresponding torque curves.

A heavy vehicle w/390 designed to haul trailers and equipment (like a tow truck) will have a different torque curve and a different cam than a Mustang w/390. Next, there are altitude and climate variations where one 390 needs more jetting and the other needs less. Along with air/fuel variations, weight and the whole torque curve band needs to match the type of service this engine is designed for.

Distributor (ignition) timing can ONLY be accomplished while the engine is under a load. Those SUN distributor machines cannot simulate a load, like the vehicle climbing a mountain.

On a lighter car built for speed, I advance ignition timing much sooner than the same engine in an F-150 truck for example. In a hauling situation, engine RPMs climb much slower. So at any given speed, the engine will spend more time at that advance setting to deliver more precise torque peak than a race engine that spends most of its life in the upper rpm band.

Knock and ping are bad at any speed. If you are getting this at all, back off on your ignition timing and consider using more octane in your fuel to slow the burn.

The timing numbers on your engine are simply a general place to start. Ford has no idea where their engines will live, the climate, altitude and service the vehicle will be used for. Tuning is up to you.

I use the 'piston stop' to verify my cam settings as well as finding TDC. I do the hand rotation, find TDC, then I put the straight-edge across #6 rocker arms when they are dead even (during scavenging, between exh closing and int opening). Why? Consider this:

The crankshaft keyway may be off,
the crankshaft sprocket keyway may be off,
the camshaft sprocket keyway or dowel pin may be off,
the camshaft keyway or dowel pin may be off,
new camshafts may include some advance/retard ground into them from the factory.


These variations can stack up in OEM and aftermarket parts. I want to see the true cam position on my degree wheel and verify exactly where the cam is before replacing the timing cover. Checking takes no more money but a little more time.

I tune my street engines to deliver more torque at low-to-mid rpm range, and race engines to deliver the goods at mid-to-top rpms.

Ignition timing has little to do with cam timing. Even though the cam drives the distributor, 'spark' is referencing the crankshaft position, not valve timing. So, it's possible for the cam to be one tooth off but ignition timing 'right on'. In that scenario, this engine will never run right.

The same holds true if the distributor gear is off a tooth. Simply moving the spark plug wires ahead or behind will NOT fix the problem because the rotor will not be directly in front of the correct distributor cap tower when the points open. The rotor will be between towers at that time which will direct spark to either of two spark plugs. This is evidenced by looking at the inside of a distributor cap. A white residue will show on one side of the electrode and on one side of the rotor tip.

Over many decades, I've seen engines that 'never ran right' according to their owners. Many of them were simply timed incorrectly either at the cam, distributor or both. We have the tools to verify and correct everything before or during final assembly but it simply never happened. - Dave

JohnG
10-08-2017, 10:17 AM
"On a lighter car built for speed, I advance ignition timing much sooner than the same engine in an F-150 truck for example."

Dave, how are you accomplishing this? Advancing the at-idle timing, or the full advance timing? are you using lighter advance springs in the distributor to get to full advance quicker?

Woobie
10-08-2017, 12:13 PM
Been there, done that. Since the engine is freshly rebuilt, it is really tight and hard to turn over. Now that I have the front end apart, I might make a second attempt to verify TDC.
Nyles

I'd recommend something soft like a thin skewer stick be used. Our 60 had a '59 block casting and EDC crank at nearly zero deck clearance; you could fit an index card under a straight edge placed across the cylinder bore. So I wouldn't want to drop in a screwdriver and start wrenching on the crank. JMO.

simplyconnected
10-08-2017, 04:58 PM
"On a lighter car built for speed, I advance ignition timing much sooner than the same engine in an F-150 truck for example."

Dave, how are you accomplishing this? Advancing the at-idle timing, or the full advance timing? are you using lighter advance springs in the distributor to get to full advance quicker?Yes John, there are a few ways to do this. Remember that 'initial timing' adds to distributor timing. Check out the site I made regarding distributor timing. CLICK HERE (http://www.squarebirds.org/simplyconnected/390Build/Distributor.htm)

I'd recommend something soft like a thin skewer stick be used... So I wouldn't want to drop in a screwdriver and start wrenching on the crank. JMO.There is never a need to crank any engine while sticking things down the cylinder.
Put the timing pointer on TDC then remove #1 & #4 spark plugs. When #1 piston is up, #4 is down.

I like using a welding rod and a sharpie marker. The welding rod won't bend and it has a porous coating that marks very easily. Stick the rod down #1 spark plug hole and mark it then stick it down #4 and mark it. Measure between your marks to reveal the stroke. It's just that simple.

Woobie
10-09-2017, 04:23 AM
There is never a need to crank any engine while sticking things down the cylinder.
Put the timing pointer on TDC then remove #1 & #4 spark plugs. When #1 piston is up, #4 is down.

I like using a welding rod and a sharpie marker. The welding rod won't bend and it has a porous coating that marks very easily. Stick the rod down #1 spark plug hole and mark it then stick it down #4 and mark it. Measure between your marks to reveal the stroke. It's just that simple.

Then that's the way we'll do it

Tbird1044
10-10-2017, 11:27 PM
Got the car all back together today and started it up to see if there was any change. The temperature outside was 84F, and I had the car in the garage and let it idle for about 1/2 hour. The temperature went to about the high side of the "M" on temp gauge. That doesn't bother me too much. Checked it with an infrared gun and it was about 200-205F. Turned on the AC and it went a little higher to the the "P" but was only on the first line of the "P". Again, the highest reading with a temp gun was about 205F. If I raised the engine above idle speed, the temperature started to drop. I think it is now in a reasonable range where I can run the car and be comfortable. I am going to add some water wetter to see if it helps at all in lowering the temperatures.
BTW, after doing all my checks with the engine, I now have the timing set at 10 degress BTDC. Seems to run well. At least I know what the timing really is. I tried to richen the carb up a bit at idle, but it seemed to be pretty good.
It seems in the past, I always checked the vacuum advance, and was convinced that the 4100 only had a "manifold" vacuum port. When I checked it today, it appeared that the port was a "ported" vacuum connection. I verified what the advance was with and without the vacuum advance, so I know it is working okay.
I don't have the electric fan with the alternator conversion, but I think I can live with the setup that I now have.
Time will tell.
Nyles

Woobie
10-11-2017, 12:54 AM
Pleased that everything has worked out so far. And going on 157 miles with your new rebuild. Are these temps with the six-blade fan ?

Tbird1044
10-11-2017, 03:12 AM
Yes, they are. I put a 6 blade flex fan on and changed the spacers to get it positioned properly in the shroud. It appears to pull more air at idle.
Nyles

Woobie
10-11-2017, 02:27 PM
I'll have to publicly commend your perseverance at ticking all the boxes to get those temps down.

BEVS BIRD
10-11-2017, 07:29 PM
HI NYLES AFTER TIMING IS SET... IDLE JET INITIAL SETTING....quick set your ldle jets on WARM ENG.......with eng OFF gently turn both screws in to FULL CLOSED...now OPEN out 1 1/2 turns...start eng AND SET IDLE RPM...now turn screws INWARD til eng JUST STARTS TO STUMBLE...now.... from the stumble point..... OPEN...yes OPEN SCREWS 1/2 TURN..DOUBLE CHECK TIMING/Vac AND IDLE RPM.... this will put you in the best operating range almost every time...double check with vac guage if you have one....this will almost evry time give you the best vac reading..and eng performance..I can only suggest this from my experience on many types of single 4 bbl carb perf engines...of course...every one has their own best experience on this subject....CHEERS TERRY

Woobie
10-11-2017, 08:38 PM
I want to shed a few 'truths' on this subject.
Pick an engine... Let's say it's a 390 just for example. Ford put the 390 in heavy cars, trucks, marine, construction equipment, industrial generators, etc.
Dave


FYI

The 427 was the FE used in marine applications at 300 horsepower. A few owners have reported that a pair of 427 sideoilers were thrown into the mix too. Continuing with the Ford V-8, the Y-Block was used with side draft carburetors, the 430 and 431 Lincoln, a few 534 Seamasters some applications with twin turbos, and the 302 and 351 in hundreds of applications, most notably Mastercraft and Correct Craft among others. Of course all the hardware and bolt-ons for the 427 would fit the much cheaper and widely available 390 for a custom build or repower.

Tbird1044
10-11-2017, 10:09 PM
That is pretty much what I do with the idle adjustment screws. I start with a balanced adjustment on both screws and then slowly lean out the mixture until I can tell a small decrease in engine RPM. I then typically open them about 1/2 turn to richen the mixture. On this car I might increase the this a small amount due to the temperature problems at idle. Figure a little richer mixture is better than running lean.
Nyles

jopizz
10-11-2017, 10:15 PM
It's also important to do the adjustments with the air cleaner in place.

John

pbf777
10-12-2017, 12:50 PM
You may also what to establish the total mechanical advance timing value @ R.P.M.'s, and separately the total vacuum advance value?

Scott.