PDA

View Full Version : Starter Drive, lever type starter/153 tooth flywheel


GTE427
07-18-2017, 01:26 PM
Came across this article to use the newer style lever type starter with the original 153 tooth flywheel. John Vermeersch of Michigan Total Performance has a solution, a Bendix drive that allows the interface between the two.
This appears to be a game changer.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/easy-fix-avoid-1958-1964-big-block-ford-starter-failure/

jopizz
07-18-2017, 01:57 PM
Ken,

Thanks for the article. That should help anyone who needs a new starter or bendix but either can't locate the older style or wants to save a little money. I'll see if Ray can add this to the TRL.

John

GTE427
07-18-2017, 02:06 PM
John,

Great. Do you know if the newer starters are compatible with the 430 engines?

jopizz
07-18-2017, 02:16 PM
430's use the same starter as 352's so there's no reason why the newer starter shouldn't bolt up as well. I know Lincoln 430's use the later starter.

John

YellowRose
07-18-2017, 03:03 PM
Done! Added to TRL under Starters, and to the Advertisements Forum under Total Performance Parts Co.

Tbird1044
07-18-2017, 04:08 PM
That's a great article and great find to what appears to be an easy upgrade. Thank you.
Nyles

jopizz
07-18-2017, 04:15 PM
Not only is it a cheaper alternative but the new style starters are much easier to install.

John

p38fighter
07-18-2017, 05:25 PM
1959 convertible

So can we make it even easier by posting part numbers for the later starter? I love the fix!!!

jopizz
07-18-2017, 05:47 PM
Unfortunately there are dozens of different part numbers as multiple companies manufacture or remanufacture that starter. It was used from the early 60's up to the late 70's in Ford, Mercury and Lincoln vehicles. The easiest thing to do is to look up a starter for a 1965 Thunderbird. That will give you the correct one.

John

del
07-19-2017, 04:58 PM
Has anyone had any luck contacting this company about the recommended bendix part C5A-11350-TP? Thought this might be a good addition to my emergency kit, along with fan belts, brake light switch...

I tried but haven't had any success. Got on their voice mail this afternoon, no call back yet. Tried the Facebook link that Ray posted in the Advertisers forum but that wouldn't open for me. Tried their ebay page but the part isn't listed. Tried a general google search on the part# but only came up with orig HotRod article. Any other ideas appreciated.:confused:

YellowRose
07-19-2017, 06:39 PM
Hi Del, when I called John, I also had to leave a voice message to him. He called me back around this time or a bit later that day. I had caught him out, apparently. We had a good conversation. Hopefully, you will hear back from him soon.

simplyconnected
07-19-2017, 08:51 PM
Elaine and John Vermeersch are good friends of mine. John also runs the Galaxie Club of Michigan. (I have one.) John is also very alive on the FE Forum.

This part number (C5A-11350-TP) is concocted, evidenced by the 'Total Performance' suffix which is John's company. The gear is not a Ford part but something that was adapted from original parts and are now selling for $24.95.

The article serves two purposes:

It announces the new part and it's intended use,
It shows how a 'store-bought' starter motor must be adapted using the new gear.


Since both the OEM and John's new Bendix gears are both 9-tooth, I'm guessing he simply cut one down and cleaned up the teeth. I will call John's cell phone tomorrow and get more particulars. What specific questions would you like answered?

The Bulldozer starter LOOKS the same as FE motors but the terminal post is moved because the exhaust manifold hits it. For this reason, I doubt the 'new' starter motor will fit a MEL 430. This starter has a big solenoid sticking out the side. Look at the pictures in John's article where both motors are sitting side-by-side and determine if the solenoid would interfere with your 430. - Dave

jopizz
07-19-2017, 09:56 PM
The Bulldozer starter LOOKS the same as FE motors but the terminal post is moved because the exhaust manifold hits it. For this reason, I doubt the 'new' starter motor will fit a MEL 430. This starter has a big solenoid sticking out the side. Look at the pictures in John's article where both motors are sitting side-by-side and determine if the solenoid would interfere with your 430. - Dave

According to the Lincoln Parts book and also what is listed on Rock Auto, Lincoln 430's began using the the later starter in 1961 up to 1965. The part number is the same as what is used on the FE's.

John

simplyconnected
07-19-2017, 10:19 PM
According to the Lincoln Parts book and also what is listed on Rock Auto, Lincoln 430's began using the the later starter in 1961 up to 1965. The part number is the same as what is used on the FE's.

JohnOk, but I thought we were talking about a Squarebird retrofit. If the 1961 starter fits a 430 Squarebird, why don't the books say so? I would LOVE for this information to be true for the SB but test the waters before jumping in. - Dave

YellowRose
07-19-2017, 10:37 PM
It is a small world! Who wudda thunk that Dave would be good friends with John! I am glad you are. It is just as Dave said, is my understanding. That John cut one down, and cleaned up the teeth and now you have a starter that is what we need to replace that OEM one... I love the idea of being able to put a spare in the glove box or in the trunk, for emergencies when you need it. Or replace that OEM one all together. I am sure Dave will have more particulars after he talks with John...

jopizz
07-19-2017, 10:57 PM
Ok, but I thought we were talking about a Squarebird retrofit. If the 1961 starter fits a 430 Squarebird, why don't the books say so? I would LOVE for this information to be true for the SB but test the waters before jumping in. - Dave

Lincoln began using a 164 tooth flexplate and the later style starter in 1961 according to what I can find. Since all Squarebirds both 352 and 430 have the 153 tooth flexplate it certainly won't work without using TP's gear retrofit.

John

simplyconnected
07-19-2017, 11:58 PM
It is a small world! Who wudda thunk that Dave would be good friends with John!...Ray, don't be surprised. I'm in Detroit, spent my entire career at Ford Motor Co., and frequently rubbed elbows with many great restorers and hot rodders of all brands but mostly Ford guys. John Vermeersch and Ford are long-time business associates. This is convenient for both Ford, and John because when concepts lead to prototypes, the 'fit' is perfect. John has been in business for many decades, actively racing his cars at local and international dragways. He is also widely respected in Canada. Some of our Galaxie members live in Canada and come to John's monthly meetings. John's daughter runs the Total Performance website.

Lincoln began using a 164 tooth flexplate and the later style starter in 1961 according to what I can find. Since all Squarebirds both 352 and 430 have the 153 tooth flexplate it certainly won't work without using TP's gear retrofit.

JohnJohn, I think the 'fit' issue revolves around the exhaust manifolds used. Where the new starters may fit a Lincoln, in the same years they will not fit a Squarebird. For instance, in 1960 neither Lincoln Continental's nor Squarebird starters were interchangeable (for the same 430 engine). It's all in the castings that fit the body. That's why we have such a hard time finding headers for a SB.

So to the point, yes in 1961 Lincoln used 164-tooth flex plates and starters are readily available. The problem we are addressing is whether a 430 MEL Squarebird flex plate can use Vermeersch's Bendix gear. I seriously doubt the new style starter will fit a SB regardless of Bendix gear. The newer starters are listed for a 1958 Continental but not a SB. - Dave

jopizz
07-20-2017, 12:15 AM
So to the point, yes in 1961 Lincoln used 164-tooth flex plates and starters are readily available. The problem we are addressing is whether a 430 MEL Squarebird flex plate can use Vermeersch's Bendix gear. I seriously doubt the new style starter will fit a SB regardless of Bendix gear. The newer starters are listed for a 1958 Continental but not a SB. - Dave

I know the later style starter will fit a Squarebird with a 352. I've seen one that had the later flexplate and starter installed. Whether it will fit a 430 is another matter. I'll check the VTCI forum. Maybe someone over there has done it.

John

simplyconnected
07-20-2017, 10:04 AM
I spoke with John Vermeersch just now. He says his gear has actually been out for SIX YEARS! The magazine picked it up as a story but it all started out with disaster in Colorado, when John was stranded and couldn't get a starter motor to get him back to Detroit.

Anyway, John doesn't think this short-nosed starter (and gear) will work on a Squarebird 430. He has not had an occasion to actually try it but that was his opinion.

His gear is made from two different pieces (not available in stores) in Wisconsin. The price is $25. - Dave

Tbird1044
07-20-2017, 02:46 PM
But it has been used successfully on the 352?
Nyles

simplyconnected
07-21-2017, 03:24 AM
Yes Nyles, very successful on all FE engines.

del
07-25-2017, 05:07 PM
Just to follow up, John returned my call yesterday and I ordered up the part. Thanks for the tip!

p38fighter
07-26-2017, 03:08 PM
Me too nice guy to deal with

jopizz
07-26-2017, 07:48 PM
If you guys can let us know how the mod works out we'd appreciate it. There's a difference between "should" work and "does" work.

John

kmack822
07-02-2018, 09:18 PM
Hi All,

I just tried the starter mod this past weekend. This is the mod referenced in the Hot Rod Network article mentioned at the start of this thread.

For reference I have a 59 Bird with the 352.

This mod saved me a lot of time and hassle and is totally worth it.

Here are a few things I can second or third or fourth....
1.) John Vermeersch is as honset as they come. I like the fact that I had to call and leave a message and then talk to him a bit before placing the order. It's always a pleasure to talk to a car nut when buying a part rather than just clicking buttons.
2.) I went to my local auto parts store to pick up the compact lever style starter. I just said I need a starter for a 65 Bird. Not all of the local stores had it, but one was enough for me.
3.) The new starter + mod from Total Performance cost less than getting a Bendix style starter.
4.) I didn't need to remove anything else from the car to replace the original starter with the new setup. I did need to disassemble the original starter in place in order to get enough clearance to get it out. After realizing that I couldn't get the original out, I removed the two bolts from the back of the starter and slid it apart. This gave me enough room to get the long drive assembly out. But, oh man, putting that old starter back together was a PITA. I called it a few names and then a few more. The new starter was tough to get in there, but I managed.
5.) I kept my fingers crossed as I lit it up the first time. Worked great! Drank a couple beers to celebrate.
6.) I am leaving out most of the background story of getting into the mess that had me looking for miracle solutions. Finding this thread at the just the right time was a miracle.

Thank you all!

jopizz
07-02-2018, 09:30 PM
Thanks so much for letting us know that the conversion was a success. We have numerous members who have been looking for a cheaper and easier alternative to the Bendix starter for many years. If one of our members who has a 430 has success with it that will be even better.

John

Tbird1044
07-02-2018, 10:31 PM
I looked in the TRL and also through this thread, but didn't see contact info for John Vermeersch. Could you please post it?
Nyles

YellowRose
07-02-2018, 10:45 PM
Contact information for John Vermeersch of Total Performance Parts, is found in the Advertisements Forum. I put it there about this time last year... Look in the T's, and I just made it a bit easier to find by adding his name after the Company name...

simplyconnected
07-03-2018, 01:24 AM
...
1.) John Vermeersch is as honset as they come. I like the fact that I had to call and leave a message and then talk to him a bit before placing the order. It's always a pleasure to talk to a car nut when buying a part rather than just clicking buttons...John is a good friend of mine on a few levels. He has a deep love for Ford engines and has worked with Ford Racing teems, to prove performance ideas and products. Being a true 'Ford guy', John loves to discuss details regarding FE engine problems. That's kinda how he came up with his Bendix gear seven years ago.

John also runs our local Galaxie club. His wife and daughter both work with John in the club.

We have many Ford 'restorer' guys around Detroit, in common. I regard John as one of the premiere FE guys. He has wrenched on them for many decades, himself. Now, he has a staff of guys at Total Performance.

I also regard many of my other Ford friends as gurus for Flathead, Y-Block, SBF and BBF engines, here. (Then there's the Chevy, Pontiac and Olds friends...) John Vermeersch can do all the above but his forte is FE engines. John is active in the FE Power Forums (http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/) and other Ford forums. We have many friends in common. - Dave