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bygrace
07-11-2017, 03:46 PM
I see it's time for shoes all around on our '60. But I remember a discussion about using 1961 self adjusters. Always thot I'd wait to do it with the next shoes. So here I am all ready and I can't find the thread. Had part numbers. I checked the Tech Library. Am I missing it there? I also remember a picture of the self adjuster installed. It looked like an illustration from a '61 manual. That would be handy too, since I'd like to be confident I'm stringing it up right. Anyone?

jopizz
07-11-2017, 03:53 PM
This might be the thread you are looking for.

squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20659 (http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20659)

John

Tbird1044
07-11-2017, 08:48 PM
Here is some info when I converted my brakes:
They are not listed for 58-60 Thunderbirds since they were not available. If you check under 1961 Thunderbird you will find them. The part numbers are Wagner H2512, H2513 and Raybestos H2544 and H2545. Napa also has them under their own part number. Most auto stores will have them or can get them. You can also get them from Rock Auto. They run between $6 and $10 dollars each. You need two of each side. You also need four of the self adjuster springs; Wagner H412. They come in pairs. They don't come in the kit.

Napa Auto Parts:
Frt and Rr Right side UP80696 $8.69
Frt and Rr Left side UP80695 $8.69
Nyles

simplyconnected
07-11-2017, 09:08 PM
Self adjusters work well as long as you stay out of water.
The basic 'kit' is for 11" brakes, one kit per wheel, left hand and right hand.

bygrace
07-12-2017, 12:03 PM
John, Niles: Thanks a lot! You guys are quick. Everything I needed. Picture too. Also appreciate the tip about the additional springs not included. I can't get the search feature to work on this phone. So thanks.
I really hate looking for parts in the middle of a job. But it often works out that way. Murphy's law. Last time I did brakes I had to go back because the shoes fit, but didn't have the right spring holes. Sheesh. Which reminds me, give me a comeback if I need 1961 shoes to have the hookup for adjusters. I'm assuming not.
Mike

jopizz
07-12-2017, 12:09 PM
Which reminds me, give me a comeback if I need 1961 shoes to have the hookup for adjusters. I'm assuming not. Mike

No. You need to use the stock squarebird shoes.

John

Deanj
07-12-2017, 12:41 PM
Interesting upgrade, but I adjust my front brakes different from each side because of pulling. After an adjustment, I test drive and re-adjust (back off one side) to get the car to stop straight.

I just follow the manual's adjustment directions on the rears since these don't spin freely like the front.

Dean

bygrace
07-12-2017, 08:10 PM
True, true, Dean. That's just one more reason there's so much on here about the disk brake conversion. Although I've never had much, if any, pulling problem. There's plenty good reasons to do the conversion.
And hey, simply connected: Is that what you meant by 'staying out of water'? Disks aren't bothered by water like drums? I'm assuming here. Mike

simplyconnected
07-12-2017, 11:40 PM
True, true, Dean. That's just one more reason there's so much on here about the disk brake conversion. Although I've never had much, if any, pulling problem. There's plenty good reasons to do the conversion.
And hey, simply connected: Is that what you meant by 'staying out of water'? Disks aren't bothered by water like drums? I'm assuming here. MikeI meant it very literally, stay out of water with drum brakes. They hold water if not 'dried out' immediately. Disks are open, cannot pool water and they dry out fast.

Self adjusters are never used on disk brakes because the pads don't have retract springs. Drum brakes do.

I have seen just about every combination of mis-matched sets of shoes possible. I'm not alone, here. Sometimes primary and secondary shoes look similar but they clearly are not. This is partially the reason for pulling brakes but not the only reason.

Our '59 Galaxie pulled terribly, one way when the brakes were cold then the opposite way when warm. It was frustrating and it proved the necessity for a huge steering wheel diameter. Disk brakes solved all those problems.

Self adjusting components are housed in a semi-enclosed and confined space. They are made of simple and cheap sheet metal and cable. If the star wheel and associated components start to rust from driving through flooded streets, they tend to bind and stop working. There are many times I pulled star wheels out just to free them up. Sometimes this was part of a brake shoe change and sometimes it was just because the self adjusters stopped working.

Do all shoes have correct holes for self adjusters? Hey, I'm a restorer/hobbiest/etc. I have drilled holes in shoes that should have been there but weren't (particularly on re-lined shoes). I have made new slots in the back plates because the OEM hole was not inline with the new self adjuster's star wheel.

That's my luck. How many of you bought a PAIR of new McPherson struts in sealed boxes with RH & LH part numbers, brought them home to a car waiting on jack stands and opened the SECOND ONE to find out it was the same-hand as the first. Of course by the second strut install, the store was closed and I was a mess. That's my luck. - Dave

bygrace
07-13-2017, 03:00 PM
Yeah, drums can be a pain. I'd like to do disks, esp since those scarebird pioneers worked out all the part numbers and rim tips. But not in the middle of 'driving season' when we want to be using it. Maybe this off season.
And bad/wrong parts! I remember a water pump that didn't fit. Too long a shaft as I remember. I think some rebuilders mis-identify their incoming returns. Speaking of which: I see my worn shoes are thin in the middle, and almost original at the ends. Like they're too small by a smidge. So when I look in the Concourse catalog, they show 1960 shoes to be 11&1/32. The earlier shoes were 11". Hmmm. Then I recall a thread here where someone thought their drums were already cut to the limit, being 11.90 (or was it 11.09?). Anyway, then he found out no, they are over 11 originally, and he could cut them out more. So right away, I wonder if I was running 11" shoes thanks to a mistaken supplier. I think I'll get shoes from out T-Bird specialists who seem to know the differences. Maybe look into radiusing them...

jopizz
07-13-2017, 03:13 PM
If you look in the shop manual you will see specs on the lining depending on your drum diameter. The standard is 11" (Wagner part # 160). The oversize is 11 1/32" (Wagner part # 264). Measure your drums and see where they fall. I've used both part numbers and haven't noticed any unusual wear. I don't think 1/32" is going to make that much of a difference.

John

bygrace
07-13-2017, 04:26 PM
Yeah, If all else fails, read the manual? :-)
Measuring what I got sounds like a good idea too. Strangely, Concourse specifically lists 11" for late '58 and all '59 fronts. 11&1/32 for 1960 and early '58. It's almost like they know something.
Thanks for the adjuster feedback.
Mike

simplyconnected
07-13-2017, 07:43 PM
...So when I look in the Concourse catalog, they show 1960 shoes to be 11&1/32. The earlier shoes were 11". Hmmm...
... I think I'll get shoes from out T-Bird specialists who seem to know the differences. Maybe look into radiusing them...Drum brake systems are VERY low-tech which is exactly why they work so well. They are simple and as such, few things can go wrong. Disk systems are even more simple.

Back in the day, the only guys that arc'ed shoes were racing guys who shaved off every ounce of weight possible. Regular garages never did. There were no self-adjusters and because new brakes quickly go out of adjustment as they bed-in, garages offered the first brake adjustment for free. This was common practice.

Ford didn't make our 11" brakes. Vendors like Bendix did. If you go to Rockauto.com and click on all the part numbers for Squarebird brakes you will discover, the same Squarebird brakes fit a host of cars in the same range of years like:
Chrysler, Dodge & Plymouth
just about all Ford, Lincoln, Mercury cars in all of North America
Hudson
Oldsmobile
Packard
Pontiac
..and others like Checker.

One of our members in California got a "high-performance" drum brake job. I never heard of such a thing. When the drum is turned true (is there any other way?) and new shoes are mounted, you can expect braking so good your life can depend on it for many ten-thousands of stops. New shoe linings are ~3/16" thick. Why would a drum diameter difference of 1/32" matter? BTW, the arc goes by the radius which is, 1/32 divided by 2 = 1/64" or 0.0156". Fifteen thousandths, on shoes that are 12-times thicker!

I don't mean to bore you with math but consider this... If new linings fit 11" drums, then the actual steel shoe must be smaller in diameter otherwise the lining would never fit the shoe.

Bottom line... wear your shoes out. When ready, put new shoes on or go with disk brakes. BTW, disk pads also have a bed-in period so always go easy on new brakes. Each brake is unique and must not be judged until the bed-in process is complete. - Dave

Deanj
07-14-2017, 02:02 PM
I like my power drum brakes. These seem adequate for normal driving as long as you know your limitations. I intended to overhaul both front and rear over the Winter, but from reading Dave's post, it's probably a waste of time and money. I like starting fresh just so I know everything is ship-shape. However, it seems you can upgrade disc brakes with better rotors and pads, but drum brakes are limited to their design and lack of further development.

Dean

bygrace
07-14-2017, 02:04 PM
Got all my parts, ready to go on the first cooler day. Can't handle the heat so well at 77. (Years, not degrees).
Thanks. Because of you all I may not be 'going under' for adjustments.

simplyconnected
07-14-2017, 07:54 PM
I like my power drum brakes. These seem adequate for normal driving as long as you know your limitations...
...However, it seems you can upgrade disc brakes with better rotors and pads, but drum brakes are limited to their design and lack of further development...Drum brakes WERE quite adequate when everyone else had them too, and so were bias ply tires. Drivers had enough respect and courtesy for others, to put 'car lengths' of space according to their speed.

Not any more. Try giving a couple car lengths in today's rush hour traffic. By today's standards, classic brakes were weak but their horns were monsters. Now you know why.

Power disk brakes are amazing. They make your classic car stop just like a modern car. I have never heard of a single owner who went back to drums. The Squarebird retrofit could be easier (and it is for other cars). This change is one of the best moves you could make for yourself, your family and your car. It is well worth it. - Dave

bygrace
07-15-2017, 08:21 PM
Cool day today, and going to be hot later, so got new shoes in with the self-adjusters according to the tips and info (part #s) provided here. Probably got the most help from the pictures. Oops, AND my wife. After all, it's her car. Thanks again. Mike