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StealthSRT10
06-07-2017, 12:17 PM
Hello everyone.

I will try to be brief.
I have a 1959 Thunderbird with the original 4v FE 352.

I have taken the engine apart and was going to rebuild.
Currently looking like it will be about $2200 to do start to finish. Not building a monster mostly stock.

I have found a 1965 f-100 truck with the 2V 352 running for $600.

I know it has alot less horsepower but can i swap my intake manifold and carb on it as is? If so its a great price help.

I still have to do some wiring and the brakes on the car but would like to have a running engine sooner than later.

Also i dont know if the motor mounts are the same location.

Any light yall could shed would be amazingly helpful.

YellowRose
06-07-2017, 12:51 PM
I just talked briefly with Dave on the phone. He said that you would be better off finding a 390 engine from a mid 70's F-100 instead of the '65 F-100 352. 390 engines are a lot more common. The motor mounts will match up, he said, for that '65 F-100 352, but it would be a good idea to get Edelbrock aluminum heads, and manifolds and put on them a 390 and cut some weight. Hopefully, he or John will be along and elaborate more on this.

jopizz
06-07-2017, 12:56 PM
You should not have any issues. Your two bolt motor mount should work just fine. Your stock 4V intake will also fit. You will have to reuse your old exhaust manifolds. Certainly a later 390 will be better, especially one that has hardened valve seats.

John

simplyconnected
06-07-2017, 01:22 PM
I look at it this way... Ford used many more 390 engines in just about everything (including Thunderbirds) than they did 352 engines. From the outside, they are identical.

Either engine from fifty or so years ago will need an overhaul. Suppliers offer many more parts for the 390 than the 352 and at cheaper prices because of supply and demand.

I use Edelbrock aluminum heads for a host of reasons. They are not available for the 352 but they fit a 390 and above (427). This is a move in the right direction and one that will operate and last like a modern engine because Edelbrock uses all the right components for pump fuel and their heads bolt right on.

You can rebuild a 352 but your choices are slim and prices are higher. Check out true roller timing sets and cam choices for both engines.

I also use Edelbrock's aluminum intake manifold with their heads. Aluminum is MUCH lighter and it conducts heat much faster than cast iron. - Dave

DKheld
06-07-2017, 01:27 PM
Sounds very close to what I did.

Plan was to rebuild original 352. Found a '64 352 (or possibly a 360) for around the same price as the one you found and it was already rebuilt - heads and all. Mine had the 4V intake which made things easier plus I wanted to use the PCV stuff.

Only problem I ran into was that the crank had a bushing inserted in the back for a manual transmission. Removed the bushing and it worked fine. I'd make sure that opening on the crank is the same.

I did buy a set of used manifolds to install on my new engine because I wanted to keep the originals on my OE engine - car was bought new by my Dad so if I ever win the lottery I'll rebuild it and re-install. Do not use gaskets on the manifolds. I did and wound up pulling the engine again just to re-do the manifolds. Have them shaved or surfaced to clean them and re-install with no gaskets as original. Mine have been fine since I did that. Leaked with the gaskets.

Moved my water pump, damper, motor mounts, genny bracket, fuel pump, etc. Which reminds me the pointer on the OE 352 for timing is on the front cover and was different on the new engine so had to figure out the timing marks.


OEM

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos300/photos/260234/20130515/b_100351.jpg

OEM is out :( - but saved for later

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos300/photos/260234/20130518/b_104254.jpg

The rebuilt engine I ran across on Craigslist.

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos300/photos/260234/20130504/b_162021.jpg

Manual trans bushing in the rear of the crank.

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos300/photos/260234/20130518/b_105605.jpg

Found the bushing after I had the old engine out and ready to install the new one - thought I was screwed as usual but the bushing pulled right out. I did use my OE flywheel as well.

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos300/photos/260234/20130518/b_105610.jpg


Hard to see - trying to show the timing pointer differences. My OE damper wound up going bad a few months later and the replacement damper had the marks for both pointers so problem solved itself (with the help of a few $$$).

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos600/photos/260234/20140820/105839.jpg

Painted the engine and ready to go back in - ugh - those valve covers have to go.
(couldn't use the OEM because they didn't have PCV and breather holes)

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos300/photos/260234/20130505/b_142437.jpg

Chrome works - added some stickers from the '55-57 312 Tbird because I thought they looked cool.....:D

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos500/photos/260234/20130928/b_181055.jpg

Good luck......
Hope it works as easy for you.
Eric

StealthSRT10
06-07-2017, 02:26 PM
Guys thank you so very much for all the info and quick replies.

My idea is to be able to get a running engine installed so that i can move on to the other aspects of the car to get it road ready.

My plan would be to over time rebuild the origional engine. but as money is a factor i would rather take my time with it and build it how i really want it.

I have had a few conversations about just putting that money into the engine i have but i am of a one track mind and am determined to get it on the road.

I am not building a race car by any means but i have much more time than money.

The numbers i look at for rebuilding what i have are around:
Heads: $800
Block: $500 - 800
Rebuild kit: $ 600
Cam and tapping block: $500
Adjustable push rods: $200 as opposed to adjustable rockers which i see for $500 to $700.

And all that is around $2900 on a worst case scenario aside from something having a crack in it.

Let me know if im crazy. I know I am hasty.

Yadkin
06-07-2017, 02:51 PM
Adjustable push rods?

StealthSRT10
06-07-2017, 03:07 PM
Adjustable push rods?


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-70000-16/overview/

this is the link

simplyconnected
06-07-2017, 03:25 PM
You're not crazy but I think you're putting good money after bad. After spending all that money, what will you end up with?

Sometimes spending a bit more money will pay off in spades later on. For instance, $800 for heads? What does that include? Do you get hardened exhaust seats and stainless valves? How about bronze guides, Viton seals and new (correct-height) springs? Are all the mating surfaces milled true? After all that you still end up with cast iron. Here's the big question, how much are these newly machined heads worth if you need to sell them? I doubt you will fetch $300 for the pair. That's a $500 loss.

Used aluminum heads fetch a grand IF you can find them, because they are snatched up right away. That's about a $350 loss. But the benefits far outweigh any loss.

FE engines run hot. Aluminum trumps all that and it still allows (factory) high compression ratios without knock. Cast iron does not. 1970 engines were designed to run on leaded gas and oil with ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus). We have neither today.

Unless you run with solid lifters, there is no reason for an adjustable valve train. Pushrods should cost under $100 per set and your original rocker arms work perfectly fine if the shafts are not scored. With any rebuild, because of decking, lifter and gasket thickness differences, you will need to measure for correct pushrod length after the heads are mounted. (It's not hard, I use a FE roller cam with my OEM rockers and shafts.)
http://www.squarebirds.org/simplyconnected/390Build/RockerShafts/DSCN1120.jpg

The solution, if you want your engine to last 250,000 miles, is to build using modern materials, like a modern engine, . I'm not talking about building a race engine. I'm talking about one that will perform well and last a very long time. You describe an engine that lasts 80,000 miles before the next build.

Yes, you can cut a lot of corners but is it worth it? Not to me. The simple reduction in cast iron weight (over 100-lbs) will pay for itself in fuel economy alone over the years. It will also allow easier starts and stops, easier cornering, less tire wear, etc.

Time is on your side so use it to your advantage. Buy name-brand parts when they are discounted. Build your engine right the first and only time. This will save you the most money over the longest run.

I hope this helps. - Dave

Yadkin
06-07-2017, 05:27 PM
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-70000-16/overview/

this is the link

Never seen them before.

StealthSRT10
06-08-2017, 10:04 AM
Yes the $800 was for all new guides and valves and seats.

I would not sell them if i did the work on the heads.

I bought an engine stand and lift yesterday to pull the engine.

Was starting on that process yesterday and wanted to ask yall if its just the 6 bolts that hold the trans to the engine.

Do i need to remove anything other than those 6 bolts and the motor mounts?

I am working out of a 2 car garage so i cant pull engine and trans at the same time because of not having room for the lift to turn.

As always yalls advice is greatly appreciated.:D

You're not crazy but I think you're putting good money after bad. After spending all that money, what will you end up with?

Sometimes spending a bit more money will pay off in spades later on. For instance, $800 for heads? What does that include? Do you get hardened exhaust seats and stainless valves? How about bronze guides, Viton seals and new (correct-height) springs? Are all the mating surfaces milled true? After all that you still end up with cast iron. Here's the big question, how much are these newly machined heads worth if you need to sell them? I doubt you will fetch $300 for the pair. That's a $500 loss.

Used aluminum heads fetch a grand IF you can find them, because they are snatched up right away. That's about a $350 loss. But the benefits far outweigh any loss.

FE engines run hot. Aluminum trumps all that and it still allows (factory) high compression ratios without knock. Cast iron does not. 1970 engines were designed to run on leaded gas and oil with ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus). We have neither today.

Unless you run with solid lifters, there is no reason for an adjustable valve train. Pushrods should cost under $100 per set and your original rocker arms work perfectly fine if the shafts are not scored. With any rebuild, because of decking, lifter and gasket thickness differences, you will need to measure for correct pushrod length after the heads are mounted. (It's not hard, I use a FE roller cam with my OEM rockers and shafts.)
http://www.squarebirds.org/simplyconnected/390Build/RockerShafts/DSCN1120.jpg

The solution, if you want your engine to last 250,000 miles, is to build using modern materials, like a modern engine, . I'm not talking about building a race engine. I'm talking about one that will perform well and last a very long time. You describe an engine that lasts 80,000 miles before the next build.

Yes, you can cut a lot of corners but is it worth it? Not to me. The simple reduction in cast iron weight (over 100-lbs) will pay for itself in fuel economy alone over the years. It will also allow easier starts and stops, easier cornering, less tire wear, etc.

Time is on your side so use it to your advantage. Buy name-brand parts when they are discounted. Build your engine right the first and only time. This will save you the most money over the longest run.

I hope this helps. - Dave

jopizz
06-08-2017, 02:55 PM
I would recommend that you unbolt the torque converter from the flywheel so it stays in the transmission. There are four nuts that hold it on. I also recommend that you put blocks under the front of the transmission so it doesn't drop. You also have to remove the bolt and bracket that holds the trans cooler lines to the block. After that remove the motor mount nuts on either side and the bell housing bolts. I think that's about it.

John

StealthSRT10
06-08-2017, 03:13 PM
thank you. I was missing that for sure. Better safe than sorry.

I would recommend that you unbolt the torque converter from the flywheel so it stays in the transmission. There are four nuts that hold it on. I also recommend that you put blocks under the front of the transmission so it doesn't drop. You also have to remove the bolt and bracket that holds the trans cooler lines to the block. After that remove the motor mount nuts on either side and the bell housing bolts. I think that's about it.

John

DKheld
06-08-2017, 05:27 PM
Exhaust bolts are going to be fun.
I had to remove the fan and water pump to clear the radiator.
Found it easier with the PS pump off and strapped over to the side as well.
Wiggled the engine all day and never could break it loose from the transmission - finally had to pry it to get it started.

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos300/photos/260234/20130518/b_104321.jpg

Believe one of the starter bolts goes all the way though to the bell housing and it also holds the tranny dipstick tube.

Starter must weigh 40 lbs - always fun taking it out.

Gas pedal and kick down linkages - fuel line.

Remove the inspection plate on the tranny to get to the flywheel bolts. I did as John described. Removed the 4 bolts from the torq converter and pulled the engine with the flywheel.

You can see one of the studs on the torq converter poking through the flywheel in this pic - bolt removed.

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos300/photos/260234/20130518/b_092240.jpg

Eric

Joe Johnston
06-08-2017, 08:07 PM
If it is not too late, Hit one of the bolts from the flex plate with some spray paint so it goes together the same way it came apart. 180 off is not a problem but 90 off is a problem as the torque converter drain plugs hit the flex plate. Might as well just put it back the way it was and have no problems.

Woobie
06-09-2017, 03:59 PM
Hello everyone.

I will try to be brief.
I have a 1959 Thunderbird with the original 4v FE 352.

I have taken the engine apart and was going to rebuild.
Currently looking like it will be about $2200 to do start to finish. Not building a monster mostly stock.

I have found a 1965 f-100 truck with the 2V 352 running for $600.

I know it has alot less horsepower but can i swap my intake manifold and carb on it as is? If so its a great price help.

I still have to do some wiring and the brakes on the car but would like to have a running engine sooner than later.

Also i dont know if the motor mounts are the same location.

Any light yall could shed would be amazingly helpful.


Hey there ! How ya making out ?

I have to commend your resolve to stick with the original 352 powerplant.

The truck 352 oil pan will more than likely be a differing design than the 59 Bird, including the oil pump pickup tube.

Comparing the water pumps too if your truck 352 is alternator equipped.

Both motors are from the age of non-detergent motor oil so I'd like to be there when you pop the intakes. Ha !

StealthSRT10
06-12-2017, 09:24 AM
If it is not too late, Hit one of the bolts from the flex plate with some spray paint so it goes together the same way it came apart. 180 off is not a problem but 90 off is a problem as the torque converter drain plugs hit the flex plate. Might as well just put it back the way it was and have no problems.

Well thats a good point that i didnt think about.

StealthSRT10
06-12-2017, 09:28 AM
So ya i bought the engine.... And i really just need to start listening to yall. Got the engine home an did a dry compression test on it and got about 40 to 50 psi on all but one cylinder and that one was about 10 psi. Then i opened the valve covers and it blows my mind how every inch of a motor can be caked in sludge. Im just gonna sell it i guess.

Should i keep the alternator that is on it.?
I need to look up info on the swap or if its worth doing. I assume my generator is working. Is there a test i can do on it maybe.

Anyways thanks for everyones help and advise. I did manage to get the engine pulled with no issues thanks to yall.:D
Hey there ! How ya making out ?

I have to commend your resolve to stick with the original 352 powerplant.

The truck 352 oil pan will more than likely be a differing design than the 59 Bird, including the oil pump pickup tube.

Comparing the water pumps too if your truck 352 is alternator equipped.

Both motors are from the age of non-detergent motor oil so I'd like to be there when you pop the intakes. Ha !

StealthSRT10
06-12-2017, 09:30 AM
I did start cleaning the engine bay. And it looks alot better.

I guess a question to ask is how much more, if at all, is the car worth having the original motor as opposed to a swap.

simplyconnected
06-12-2017, 09:47 AM
I look at it this way... Ford used many more 390 engines in just about everything (including Thunderbirds) than they did 352 engines. From the outside, they are identical.

Either engine from fifty or so years ago will need an overhaul.
I tried to steer you in the right direction. There are a ton of 352 engines out there that are hard to get rid of because of the reasons I mentioned.

I never spend more than $200 for a 390 because I always assume they need an overhaul. We have members who bought overhauled engines, only to find out later on that the build wasn't what they thought. I don't leave that to chance.

Good luck getting $600 out of an old tired engine. Take my advice and find a 390 to build. If you can't afford it right now, wait until you can. Don't get rid of anything until your build is complete.

Ford engines do not have VIN numbers so an 'upgrade' is hard to detect without getting into casting numbers. - Dave

DKheld
06-12-2017, 10:05 AM
Got lucky on my engine (for a change) - no paperwork but the guy seemed honest enough - probably not the norm these days but I took a chance. Before I installed it I used a bore scope and could see the new .020 over pistons, correct hashing on the cyl walls, valve train looked new under the valve covers etc.

So far it has worked out - hate to hear yours was not so great.

As far as value......

Comes up a lot on my MG forum. The early MG's had the engine number stamped on the VIN plate so if the car is to be a show car it makes a BIG difference in value to have the original engine. Probably as much as 25% of the value of the car - HOWEVER - the plates on the engine can be re-produced so someone "could" create a numbers matching car. I've seen MG's go for 2x what any other car of the same condition would fetch but the seller had a documented paper trail on all the components.

My Tbird for example. Bought new by my Dad and Mom. I do have a lot of the original documentation from when the car was bought new and never have seen the engine number recorded on any of it. Don't think the FE engines even have a serial number??? just a date code. My engine has been changed. You can't tell it's not the OEM 352 without looking at the date code numbers on the block. In a show judges might look for that sort of thing so once again - if the car was to be shown it would matter.

Even though the engine numbers are not recorded (that I know of - even on my build sheet) it still would make a slight difference IMHO. If someone bought your car and wanted to make a show car out of it they would have to factor in finding a correct engine for the car, rebuilding and installing. Maybe 10-25% of the value?

Heck - even on my OEM engine the intake number is a '61 production number. I'm 99.9% sure it was never changed but it would be hard to prove. Judges would probably count off points for the '61 intake on a '60 car (until it was proven that late production '60 Tbirds were fitted with early '61 parts - which is what I believe happened).

On the other hand if a fellow wanted it to drive. A rebuilt FE might be a plus to that buyer (original type engine not necessarily the original one)

An then for the street rod buyer - he might love to see a modern fuel injected Lincoln Navigator engine in there and would not pay as much for the OEM style FE engine in it.

All a big gamble really and depends on the buyer. I'd say if you have what you think is the OEM engine and can keep it to sell with the car that's what I would do. If the buyer doesn't care about it then you can just sell it.

JMHO

Eric

StealthSRT10
06-12-2017, 10:11 AM
That had crossed my mind. Just to reassemble the origional on the engine stand.

Hopefully parting out the extra engine i bought isnt what i have to do.

Either way. What is the order i should buy my parts in.

Like i believe i need to buy over sized pistons and the shop will have to machine to the piston.

How does eveyone feel about the "engine rebuild kits"?

Got lucky on my engine (for a change) - no paperwork but the guy seemed honest enough - probably not the norm these days but I took a chance. Before I installed it I used a bore scope and could see the new .020 over pistons, correct hashing on the cyl walls, valve train looked new under the valve covers etc.

So far it has worked out - hate to hear yours was not so great.

As far as value......

Comes up a lot on my MG forum. The early MG's had the engine number stamped on the VIN plate so if the car is to be a show car it makes a BIG difference in value to have the original engine. Probably as much as 25% of the value of the car - HOWEVER - the plates on the engine can be re-produced so someone "could" create a numbers matching car. I've seen MG's go for 2x what any other car of the same condition would fetch but the seller had a documented paper trail on all the components.

My Tbird for example. Bought new by my Dad and Mom. I do have a lot of the original documentation from when the car was bought new and never have seen the engine number recorded on any of it. Don't think the FE engines even have a serial number??? just a date code. My engine has been changed. You can't tell it's not the OEM 352 without looking at the date code numbers on the block. In a show judges might look for that sort of thing so once again - if the car was to be shown it would matter.

Since the engine numbers are not recorded (that I know of - even on my build sheet) it would make a slight difference IMHO. If someone bought your car and wanted to make a show car out of it they would have to factor in finding a correct engine for the car, rebuilding and installing. Maybe 10-25% of the value?

Heck - even on my OEM engine the intake number is a '61 production number. I'm 99.9% sure it was never changed but it would be hard to prove. Judges would probably count off points for the '61 intake on a '60 car (until it was proven that late production '60 Tbirds were fitted with early '61 parts - which is what I believe happened).

On the other hand if a fellow wanted it to drive. A rebuilt FE might be a plus to that buyer (original type engine not necessarily the original one)

An then for the street rod buyer - he might love to see a modern fuel injected Lincoln Navigator engine in there and would not pay as much for the OEM style FE engine in it.

All a big gamble really and depends on the buyer. I'd say if you have what you think is the OEM engine and can keep it to sell with the car that's what I would do. If the buyer doesn't care about it then you can just sell it.

JMHO

Eric

jopizz
06-12-2017, 10:53 AM
Don't buy any engine parts until a machine shop inspects your block and determines what bore size they can safely go with. You can buy the full FE gasket kit as you will need that regardless of what engine you rebuild. I also recommend putting a new front seal and front pump bushing and o-ring in your transmission. As for originality Ford didn't put VIN numbers on engine blocks, only date codes. I wouldn't worry about it affecting the value. You can take the alternator to just about any auto store and they will test it for free. It's most likely a low amp alternator so it doesn't have much value.

John

pbf777
06-12-2017, 11:42 AM
Just my opinion: REBUILD THE ORIGINAL ENGINE, correct for the car.

Find a competent shop to provide fair and honest rebuilding services, communicate, and "pay-the-price". Face the fact, that with old cars come repairs, and in the long-run, this will provide far less headache, and prove far less expensive, then most other processes trying to get it done cheaply.

For the experience, and/or to reduce costs, one may chose to be more "involved" and "participate" to varying degrees, and this is K.O.; but, with less knowledge, or interest in turning the wrench ones' self, comes more of the assistance as outlined above.

The cost difference, of rebuilding the 352 vs. a 390 is not significantly greater (if at all, each example proves unique); but with the wrong engine present, the devaluation of your vehicle will be.

Generally, installing an engine other than that which the vehicle was originally equipped is due to the original not being of rebuildable condition, not available, or did not/will not provide suitable performance (defined with many perspectives) for intended purpose. None of these scenarios would seem to enhance the potential collectability (value) of your vehicle.

Scott.

StealthSRT10
06-12-2017, 12:16 PM
I found a place in Houston that will do the entire long block rebuild for $1700. That doesnt seen too bad.

I just need to sell the extra motor that i bought.
Anyone interested in it lol.

jopizz
06-12-2017, 12:38 PM
If you plan on upgrading to an alternator you might want to think about rebuilding the new block you bought. That one has the hole drilled for the alternator mounting bolt. Your old block does not. It's much easier mounting an alternator using the original Ford brackets than fabricating new ones.

John

Woobie
06-12-2017, 10:35 PM
That had crossed my mind. Just to reassemble the origional on the engine stand.

Hopefully parting out the extra engine i bought isnt what i have to do.

Either way. What is the order i should buy my parts in.

Like i believe i need to buy over sized pistons and the shop will have to machine to the piston.

How does eveyone feel about the "engine rebuild kits"?


Then you have determined the 59 needs more than just ring job, valve lap and stem seals.

Too bad about the truck 352. That sludge is a bear to clean up, huh ? And then there is the oil pickup screen.

If you are looking to have a restored Tbird or just a beater would make a difference to me for resale. In other words if I buy an original that rolls off the transport with a 390 there will be trouble.