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Frango100
05-15-2017, 10:12 AM
The rear axle seals are leaking a bit on both sides. Can i just replace the seals, or should both wheel bearings be changed as well? There is no play on the bearings.

Dakota Boy
05-15-2017, 11:04 AM
Replace the bearings if the age of them is unknown.

Deanj
05-15-2017, 11:16 AM
Dakota Boy: Replace the bearings if the age of them is unknown

You better tell Frank what that entails. I didn't replace mine because these were fine and the new bearings might be inferior.

Dean

simplyconnected
05-15-2017, 11:41 AM
I never replace bearings unless they show signs of failure. Before a bearing goes, it normally gets loud, then they feel funky as you rotate by hand.

If an inspection shows a smooth bearing 'to the feel' with no lamination or discoloration, why swap it with another that looks the same? Don't get me wrong, at the slightest sign of failure they should be changed.

Certainly, you can change your seals and gaskets without changing your bearings. At the same time, I would use this opportunity to clean out the differential housing and replace two quarts of 90W gear lube. If you want a reason, remove some of the old gear lube into a bucket and look at it in the sunlight. The job will only cost the price of an additional paper gasket and NO shim adjustments will be required. Simply follow your Shop Manual. - Dave

Frango100
05-15-2017, 03:03 PM
Thanks for the answers guys. My wheel bearings seem to be ok, but there is some noise coming from the rear end, what seems to be from the differential itself. When accelerating there is noise, but when coasting there is no noise. I did change the fluid some months ago, since I didnīt knew when it was done before, and it was looking good. Since the pinion seal also has a slight leak, I will be opening up the diff and see how the pinion itself looks. It could be that a pinion or diff bearing is causing the noise.

pbf777
05-31-2017, 12:55 PM
This response might be a little late but; one other consideration is the fact that many an axle bearing failure has actually been the result of a seal failure first.

In the 9 inch Ford unit which uses the sealed ball bearing (not all do), along with keeping the gear lube off the ground, the seal is responsible for keeping the lube from entering the bearing, diluting the grease and causing it to migrate out of the bearing assy.

The gear lube witnessed as a leakage has two routes in its' escape once passed the seal to be visible. Either around the alxe bearing's outer circumference, between the O.D. of the race and the I.D. of the housing, or thru the bearing assy. itself. In the prior instance there is no effect on the bearing assy.; in the latter, the grease is liquified and "washed" out of the bearing causing failure do to lack of lubrication. Note: that although the definition applied to the bearing may be "sealed", this is understood as a grease seal for the retention of the grease for lubrication about the bearing, not as a capable fluid seal for retention or separation of gear oil.

This is another one of those "things", that with experience, and a developed "feel' for how things should be, one is able to decide, "Ya or Nay" to the serviceability of.

Scott.

Frango100
05-31-2017, 02:55 PM
Thanks for your reply Scott. I was also thinking about this and wonder how the bearings will be. The leaking started not long ago, so maybe its not that bad yet, but strangely enough it leaks on both sides and also the pinion seal. I thought about a closed breather, but the cap is loose. Is the breather suppost to be directly on the axle, and not remotely with some hose?
I didnīt start this job yet, since I'm looking for the sledge hammer tool for removing the axle shafts here locally. I had found a kit and even bought it, but after two weeks of waiting they informed me that they canīt supply it anymore, since Stanley doesnīt make the kit here anymore. And so far I couldnīt find any other kit here. Looking on e-bay now for a reasonably priced kit.

Yadkin
06-01-2017, 09:49 AM
When you get the half shafts out inspect the area where the seals ride. Mine were corroded so that new seals couldn't do their job. I found a local machine shop that was able to repair the shafts with sleeves. The process involves machining the area to receive the sleeve, heating the sleeve to expand it then pressing it into place.

Here is what a repair sleeve looks like installed.

pbf777
06-01-2017, 12:16 PM
[QUOTE: Is the breather suppost to be directly on the axle, and not remotely with some hose?

On most automotive car applications of this period, the vent often consisted of the "rattle-cap" assy. screwed directly into the axle housing. A hose attached to a nipple screwed into the housing and then extended up to the the frame was used on automotive light truck units, due in part to potential off-road excursions.

Scott.

Frango100
06-01-2017, 03:02 PM
Thanks again Scott. Do you know if a slide hammer really will be necessary to get the shafts out? I was looking at e-bay for a slide hammer, but with the shipping costs almost equaling the tool price, then I even have to pay taxes which equal the sum of the tool and the shipping. So that will be four times the tools price at the end. I do like to have tools, but not for those ridiculous prices. Maybe I will have to construct some tool myself.

Dakota Boy
06-01-2017, 05:11 PM
Nobody in Brazil uses or sells slide hammers? I can rent a kit for free from one of the big auto parts stores here in the States.

simplyconnected
06-01-2017, 06:04 PM
We always used the tire, with the lug nuts barely screwed on. Grab it by one side, push it in, then jerk it out hard. I still don't own a slide hammer. - Dave

Frango100
06-01-2017, 07:36 PM
There was only one shop which was selling a slide hammer, which I paid for, but then they told me that they donīt have it anymore and that the factory doesnīt make it anymore. So far I was not able to find any other.
I will try your trick Dave, that should do it.

scumdog
06-01-2017, 08:10 PM
We always used the tire, with the lug nuts barely screwed on. Grab it by one side, push it in, then jerk it out hard. I still don't own a slide hammer. - Dave

Same here!

Take off drum, undo backing plate/retainer bolts, put rim back on, (Sometimes facing the wrong way can give you an advantage if space is tight) put on the lug-nuts a few turns each and slam away!

Yadkin
06-02-2017, 11:06 AM
Back in the mid 80's I had a '69 F100 that was a rat rod before the term was popular. I purchased it from an old drunk that had let it sit in the mud for a long time. This was upstate NY so everything was rusted on this truck.

One day I passed a car on a two lane and when I turned back into the travel lane my left half shaft came out. Talk about excitement, LOL. It turned out that the bearing had run out of grease, and I don't remember the assembly details, but that had allowed the shaft to leave the housing.

I replaced the right side bearing as well and I guess that the shaft was pressed into it somehow? In any event, I needed a large slide hammer to disassemble it. And of course I did not own one.

But I did have a big slug of steel that weighed about 20 pounds and some heavy chain. So I bolted the chain onto one of the half shaft lugs, the other end of the chain fastened the the slug. By swinging the slug away from the axle it hammered it when the chain was un-slacked. It took about 10 minutes of work-out but she came loose!

simplyconnected
06-02-2017, 01:44 PM
Same here!

Take off drum, undo backing plate/retainer bolts, put rim back on, (Sometimes facing the wrong way can give you an advantage if space is tight) put on the lug-nuts a few turns each and slam away!I like Tom's answer better than mine because instead of assuming too much (like my answer), he offers full details. Good answer, Tom.

After thinking about this, the 'fabrication side' of me kicked in. It's easy to adapt a barbell plate into a slide hammer. I'll let you figure out the rest but this idea can use any weight and length you like. For myself, I'll stick to the 'loose tire' method because it works. - Dave

DKheld
06-02-2017, 01:58 PM
I already had the slide hammer..... darn.

Missed all the fun using the wheel method.....:D

Have a look.....
http://squarebirds.org/users/DKheld/RearAxleBearing/resized/

YellowRose
06-02-2017, 04:36 PM
Thanks to Eric ~ DKheld, that Tech Tip that he wrote some time ago, has been in the Technical Resource Library for all to view and use! Thanks again for putting that terrific Tech Tip together with pix, Eric!

DKheld
06-02-2017, 04:54 PM
No problem!!!

In this pic you can see the drainage hole at the bottom of the axle housing for the gear oil to drain away from the brake shoes etc.

http://squarebirds.org/users/DKheld/RearAxleBearing/resized/DSC04750-09_800.jpg


Just a thought - and that paper gasket could easily fail after 50+ years - but if your leak is inside where the shoes are it could be the wheel cylinders leaking brake fluid ????

Eric

Frango100
06-02-2017, 11:47 PM
Thanks again for the answers guys. Its really diff fluid what is leaking. Also all my brake cylinders are new, changed them shortly after purchasing the bird last year. Now i will need to find some time to tackle this job.

Frango100
06-12-2017, 03:16 PM
So I pulled both axle shafts today. No puller needed or even the wheel trick, I could take them out by just pulling with two hands. Some China made bearings are on there now. Both bearings rotate freely and only on the left hand side I could feel a very little bit of play. But I wonder if the external dimensions of these bearings are exactly as should be, since I suppose that removing with little hand force doesnīt seem to be the right way. No signs of them rotating inside the axle tubes though.
On both sides, the area where the oil seal is touching, the axle is not smooth. On the left hand side there are some small imperfections, which maybe with some polishing can be removed. On the right hand side however, some backyard mechanic probably put some grinder on there during the removal of the bearing lock ring and touched the axle. The area is not perfectly round and I doubt that this can be restored with polishing.
@ Yadkin, do they sell the repair sleeves somewhere, or where they made by the repair shop? To remove the bearing, this sleeve has to come of again I believe?

Yadkin
06-14-2017, 09:27 AM
@ Yadkin, do they sell the repair sleeves somewhere, or where they made by the repair shop? To remove the bearing, this sleeve has to come of again I believe? The machine shop I used ordered them for me. As I recall they did so based on the shaft dimensions, not make and model. They are specialty parts that any decent axle repair shop should have access to.

Frango100
06-15-2017, 10:58 AM
I found repair sleeves called "SKF Speedy sleeves". Someone used these?
Still trying to find a shop here locally which does axle repairs, but so far no results.

DKheld
06-15-2017, 11:13 AM
Here is a link to a couple of articles on how we do the same procedure on the MG's.

I'm not familiar with SKF brand but would guess they are as good as any.

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/rearaxle/ra101.htm

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/rearaxle/hub_13.htm

Eric

Yadkin
06-15-2017, 04:23 PM
I found repair sleeves called "SKF Speedy sleeves". Someone used these?
Still trying to find a shop here locally which does axle repairs, but so far no results.

Find a reputable shop. The axles can't be heated because they will lose strength. As I recall the procedure was to cold-machine a spot on the axle using a lathe, then cool it down (probably with dry ice), heat up the sleeve and then put it on.

simplyconnected
06-15-2017, 06:35 PM
SKF offers, Spedi-Sleeve in a range of sizes from under 1/2" through 8".

No heat or machining is necessary and no heat/cold therapy is used at all. These sleeves are made of thin metal and they come with a driver. Thin metal will expand when driven onto a larger diameter thus creating a perfect interference fit and a smooth surface for your seal.

If you prefer a machine shop to install, ok but this system isn't very technical aside from supplying an accurate shaft measurement.

CLICK HERE (http://www.skf.com/us/products/seals/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/wear-sleeves/skf-speedi-sleeve/index.html)

Sleeves are commonly used on crankshafts for the timing cover seal. Many of our vendors carry that seal sleeve. - Dave

DKheld
06-15-2017, 07:56 PM
Check that first link about installing the sleeve on an MG axle - same thing and great instructions (with pictures !).

Also - the good news is a new larger seal should not be needed.

"As the new sleeve is just 0.010" thick, it will work nicely with the standard hub seal."

I've been really lucky with all my axle work so far and haven't needed a sleeve.

Eric

pbf777
06-15-2017, 09:10 PM
Back before these commercially available repair sleeves were available, for the 9" Ford axle one would acquire the seal adapter sleeve installed (pressed) on the 31 spline application axles and use the seal for the 31 spline axles vs. the 28 spline seal. All done, all Ford.

Yes I know, some more "back-in-the-day" obsolete information. But hey, back when you figured it out it was useful; today, it's only maybe, a good story, if someone cares.

Scott.

P.S. If someone has cut, hacked, wacked, ground, chiseled, torched, welded, or some other ham-fisted D.A. execution ----THROW THE AXLES AWAY!----!!!! (actually, they make good tent stakes, driven into the ground, big flange, can't miss with the sledge hammer) Axle failure (the wheel flies off!), particularly at speed, is no fun.

Frango100
06-16-2017, 01:03 AM
I see that Rockauto sells the Redi- Sleeves from National and some SKF Speedi-Sleeves as well. I will measure tomorrow the axles and see if they have the right size available.

Frango100
06-16-2017, 03:41 PM
I just had a look at the ring gear this morning and see quite some pitting on both sides of the contact surfaces. That could explain the humming noise which comes from the diff at higher speeds. I didnīt see any metal glinsters in the fluid, but it looks somewhat darker then when I had put it in around 1000 miles ago. The pinion looks still ok as far as I can see, but both should be changed as a set I believe. Rockauto has them from Dorman and Dana. Probably Dana will be the best way to go? Best would be to change all the bearings then as well. They also sell a complete bearing and seal kit, which also has the crush sleeve and adjusting shims for the pinion and some marking material to check the gear engagement. I didnīt check the spider gears yet, I hope that at least they are ok.
Since I just bought some material from Carl, all this diff work must wait a bit until fundings allow.

YellowRose
06-16-2017, 04:10 PM
Frank, and all of you, do not forget that Rock Auto gives Forum members a 5% discount on all online orders. That discount code is found in the Advertisements Forum postings by Rock Auto. They are a member of our Forum.

Frango100
06-16-2017, 07:09 PM
Thanks for that Ray. Most of the time I just google "rockauto discount" and get the latest valid coupon code for 5% discount.

p38fighter
06-16-2017, 11:15 PM
Per the vendor ad it has apparently expired. Has it been changed and or renewed?

YellowRose
06-17-2017, 12:43 AM
Thanks, Chris, I will contact Megan Theodoro of Rock Auto Marketing and ask her to post the new one. In the meantime, if anyone orders, inform them that the 5% discount code they provide us has expired. It might be that Megan is off on vacation or has forgotten to renew it, as she usually does.

YellowRose
06-17-2017, 11:26 AM
I spoke with Rock Auto this morning. Megan is not on duty over the weekend. But I was given a new short term discount code good until 2 July, until she can post a new one. Go to the Advertisements Forum, look for the Rock Auto entries, and you will see the new discount code posted there.

YellowRose
06-19-2017, 09:55 AM
There has been a new RockAuto discount code posted this morning. The temporary one I was given has been deleted. Check the RockAuto entry for the new one in the Advertisements Forum.

Frango100
06-27-2017, 10:27 AM
I just put the whole differential back together for now. It seems that a new drive pinion was installed once, but the ring gear looks original and has quite some wear spots on its surface. Also the side gears and pinions are noisy, even though i didnīt open it up to check further. The ring gear had quite some back lash before disassembly and now is adjusted properly. The noise from the differential is a lot less, but i will save up some money to buy a new drive pinion/ring gear set, new bearings set and new pinions and side gears.
The leaks from both axle tube seals and the pinion seal at least are solved for now, even though i didnīt get the speedi-sleeves yet. Those will also be done when i open up the differential again.
One thing i didnīt check (very clever:o) are the splines on both drive shafts. Is this a fixed number on 58 Birds, or can that be different?

Dakota Boy
06-27-2017, 11:22 AM
your axles have 28 splines

Frango100
06-27-2017, 07:26 PM
Thanks for that Greg:)

Frango100
07-07-2017, 03:51 PM
Just looking at the Rockauto site for the differential rebuild kits. There seem to be different 9" differentials. Anyone knows the difference between a LM102910, a LM501310 and a LM603011????:confused:
For the pinions, probably best to buy forged instead of cast. Was the original setup forged?

jopizz
07-07-2017, 10:52 PM
According to the Ford Parts Book all Squarebirds used LM603011 3 1/16" large bearing cup.

John

Frango100
07-08-2017, 12:00 AM
Thanks John.

Frango100
07-08-2017, 11:20 AM
So i replaced the upper suspension arm aft bushings on both sides (both where worn out), and now, when connecting the upper arm to the axle, the axle is swivelled a bit to the front, making the drive shaft yoke not completely in line with the drive shaft. Also both "clappers" are far more open then i saw on pictures from others. Both the lower and upper arms seem to be original and the axle as well. Nothing is bend or strange in any way. What can be wrong here? It almost seems that the upper arms are too short, or the lower arms too long:eek::confused:

jopizz
07-08-2017, 12:18 PM
Do you have the rear of the car up in the air or on the ground. If it's up in the air try putting it on the ground and see if it straightens out.

John

pbf777
07-08-2017, 12:33 PM
Concerning bearings for your differential: before I incurred the cost to freight (& the V.A.T.), the hopefully correct units to......where? I would advise disassembling the differential and acquire the numbers from the bearings (usually present on the bearings & races).

These vehicles are not new, and in the past rather than repair a differential, a replacement often was transplanted (easier!), particularly in the case of the Ford 9 inch. You already indicated your belief that the unit has apparently been address previously, so what was done?

Most all of the components from one 9 inch can be assembled into any other unit (generally with only concerns for appropriate bearings to accomplish such), therefore sometimes one may encounter a "Frankenstein", :eek: with parts from several different models and/or years accumulated.

Do you happen to recall the casting identification on the case when you had the unit removed? I believe during this period (of the "Squarebird") the two units were the "WAR" and the "WAB" cases; the later being appropriate for the birds I believe; and if so, perhaps your chances are better?

Just-a-thought.

Scott.

Frango100
07-08-2017, 03:11 PM
Do you have the rear of the car up in the air or on the ground. If it's up in the air try putting it on the ground and see if it straightens out.

John
The car is on the ground now and still having the drive yoke center line horizontal, while it should point upwards a little bit, to be in line with the drive shaft. Before I changed the springs, it was pointing up a bit, but that was because the upper arm rear bushings where completely worn. Now with the new bushings, the axle is forced/tilted more forward, causing the "clapper" to be more open then it was before. I will see if I can get any P/N or identification from the diff housing. The only strange thing I see is that the differential is welded to the axle. Even though it seems to be welded well, it doesnīt look to be from the factory like this. As if they had welded a new/used differential to the existing axles.

pbf777
07-10-2017, 01:35 PM
[QUOTE]The car is on the ground now and still having the drive yoke center line horizontal, while it should point upwards a little bit, to be in line with the drive shaft.

Note that the proper pinion angle (differential) is referenced to the transmission output shaft angle, not the driveshaft. And to carry this discussion further, ideally the u-joint manufacturer's prefer at least 3° of angle deviation (@ u-joints) for best service life.

[QUOTE]The only strange thing I see is that the differential is welded to the axle. Even though it seems to be welded well, it doesnīt look to be from the factory like this. As if they had welded a new/used differential to the existing axles.

Please expound further on this welding work? Perhaps, if we agree on certain terminology, a better understanding maybe had (sorry, I need things spelled out to me :confused:): the Ford 9 inch unit has a cast iron differential case (containing the differential unit, ring & pinion set w/ bearings, flange, etc.), retained by ten studs & nuts w/ sealing washers into the stamped sheet metal axle housing, which accepts the axle shaft assemblies (splined & flanged axle forgings w/ studs, bearings & retainer plates) within the axle tubes of the housing, retained by fasteners.

Where is this welding work?

Scott.

scumdog
07-10-2017, 03:11 PM
The car is on the ground now and still having the drive yoke center line horizontal, while it should point upwards a little bit, to be in line with the drive shaft. Before I changed the springs, it was pointing up a bit, but that was because the upper arm rear bushings where completely worn. Now with the new bushings, the axle is forced/tilted more forward, causing the "clapper" to be more open then it was before. I will see if I can get any P/N or identification from the diff housing. The only strange thing I see is that the differential is welded to the axle. Even though it seems to be welded well, it doesnīt look to be from the factory like this. As if they had welded a new/used differential to the existing axles.

I suspect what you are seeing is the centre 'bowl' of the axle housing which has the axle 'tubes' welded onto each side of it. The welded areas are just to each side of the 'bowl'

Frango100
07-11-2017, 07:18 PM
I suspect what you are seeing is the centre 'bowl' of the axle housing which has the axle 'tubes' welded onto each side of it. The welded areas are just to each side of the 'bowl'
Yes, the weld is in between the differential housing and the axle tubes. Only on the left hand side a piece of steel is welded together on the top part, looks like a repair area.
But I will have to look at the transmission output shaft and the differential yoke angles. I only remember that the yoke was pointing up a bit before and now its completely horizontal. Also the so called " clappers" are further open then they where before, showing that the differential is tilted a bit more forward than it was used to be. I donīt remember to have seen a torque value for the vertical bolts of the "clappers". When you put torque on those bolts, you will tilt the differential a bit, but put strain on the upper and lower control arm bushings and bolts. That doesnīt seem to be ok:confused:

Frango100
08-02-2017, 03:00 PM
I didnīt take the differential apart yet, but i was looking at the external markings. The pinion support shows WAT B2, which is a standard support used on a WAR case. Is there any coding on the outside of the case to show that it is a WAR case?

Frango100
08-04-2017, 03:41 PM
So I looked around on several sites regarding the Ford 9" differential. Since my differential doesnīt have the original ID tag anymore, the only way to find out that it is an original differential is by removing the third member and checking the stamping on the inside. So I did, and found it to be a WAR 4025B, which seems to be original. It indeed has LM603011-N bearing races for the carrier bearings.
The bearings are from the brand Koyo and must have been changed at some point in time. Iīm no expert on bearings and was just wondering if the bearings need to be changed. There is a noise coming from the differential, especially while accelerating, but that can be from the ring gear, which shows quite some flaking on the teeth surfaces. Would it be wise to change all the bearings, when changing the ring and pinion gear? At least I would start with a clean sheet. I can imagine that the missing metal from the teeth will have caused wear or damage to the bearing surfaces, even though I canīt see anything special to the races or rollers.

simplyconnected
08-04-2017, 04:23 PM
Gears and bearings are case hardened. If you see flakes of metal missing on ANY of these parts, they should be changed.

Let me say this another way: If your bearings look good, do not change them. Bearings usually fail in only a few ways. You mentioned the first way, which we call, "delamination". That means the hardened portion is coming off. Another reason for failure is from being too tight, which causes discoloration. If no lubrication, bearings might fail as well.

Ring gears and pinion gears are heat treated to give surface hardness. If you see that portion flaking (delaminating), that gear set should be changed.

Sometimes one faulty part may cause other parts to fail but usually NOT in a rear end filled with heavy gear oil. Again, clean and examine each bearing and race.

Bearings and seals are metric (and always have been). The number you found on one brand is usually found on the other brands as well. Sometimes a company will prefix the number with their initials but the 'base number' should carry over to other brands. I like checking Rock Auto because they show many brands of the same part. - Dave

Frango100
08-05-2017, 03:00 PM
Thanks for that Dave.
Just took the differential carrier completely apart his morning. The ring gear has the FoMoCo stamping on it and most probably is original, but the teeth are flacking. The pinion gear doesnīt show any brand, seems to be newer and doesnīt show wear on the teeth, but the pilot bearing side shows rough spots, as if it was fixed in a vice once. Since this side acts as a bearing race, it should be perfectly smooth. Ring gear and pinion I already wanted to change, but now I will do all the bearings as well. The pilot bearing will have suffered due to the rough areas of the pinion shaft end. Looking at the carrier bearing races, I can see signs of light wear. At least I can see where the rollers have run, so probably best to change all at once.
I also opened up the spool and checked the side gears and pinions. The side gears teeth are worn and show pitting. The pinion shaft shows quite heavy wear where the pinions are running. Since I heard before some rough noises coming from the differential while turning one wheel, I already bought a new side gear/pinion kit. (took advantage of a colleague going to SFO for a training:D).
Do you guys know if there is a real difference in quality of bearings between Koyo and Timken? Just checking the options with Rockauto.
Ahh, something else, there is a crack in the horizontal solder of the diff housing (left hand side, when looking toward the engine). It starts just where the third member attaches. This was already repaired before, hence the strange solders I had seen before. The housing is made out of several parts and welded together from the factory, but why would it crack? Would the strain, put on the axle by those strange clappers, have to do to it? I also wonder if the upper control arms are original. Does someone with a 58 has those arms loose on the bench and could measure the length of them from bushing centerline to bushing centerline?

simplyconnected
08-05-2017, 04:46 PM
If it were me, I would look for a good used axle assembly. You are faces with replacing all rotating parts AND a cracked housing. The only parts left are axle shafts.

Again if it were me, knowing that '58 axles are scarce, I would replace with a leaf spring setup (like the ones used in '59 & '60 T-birds and a host of other Ford cars).

There is no sense in beating a dead horse when other options will work even better. Some of our parts places have loads of Squarebirds with leaf spring brackets. - Dave

Frango100
08-05-2017, 07:35 PM
Unfortunately we donīt have a lot of classic American cars here in Brazil, so finding a suitable axle assy I think will not be that easy. Besides the fact that if there is one, it will cost a fortune.

scumdog
08-05-2017, 08:57 PM
Unfortunately we donīt have a lot of classic American cars here in Brazil, so finding a suitable axle assy I think will not be that easy. Besides the fact that if there is one, it will cost a fortune.

IF you can confirm the housing is not bent I would just grind out where the rack is and get somebody that you know is competent to re-weld it. The 'solder' you mention will actually be weld, solder wasn't used on those housings!

And I feel your pain regarding parts availability and freight costs etc!

For example, finding a '59 or '60 Thunderbird to get the rear-end and springs from here in NZ would be impossible, I have only ever heard of ONE Squarebird being parted out over here -and that was just recently, before that there were none.

Frango100
08-06-2017, 02:10 PM
Hi Scumdog, yes you are right, its a weld. But this is welded already from the factory and re-welded later on again. No idea why it would crack again, the third member is bolted to it and should keep it all straight.
I was just counting the teeth on the pinion and ring gear: 16 on the pinion and 44 on the ring gear. That makes it a 2.75 ratio.
Originally it came with a 3.10 ratio. (a 1 on the data plate)
Iīm not a racer, so wouldnīt it be better to go back to the 3.10 ratio?
I found some old Ford 9" axles, but all as is. They where removed from some old Fords and have all original internals, so most probably will need to have all seals and bearings be changed. And you never know the state of the ring and pinion in there. It would run somewhere in the USD 2000, so not for me.

Frango100
08-08-2017, 07:17 PM
I checked Rockauto for the ring gear/pinion and saw that they donīt sell the 3.10 ratio. They do sell the 3.00, so that should be close enough. Or is there a good reason to put another ratio in there (just for cruising)?

simplyconnected
08-09-2017, 03:21 AM
Don't be afraid to use a 3.55:1. For even more torque, a 3.77:1.

I've used up to 4.30:1 but with an overdrive transmission. 3.9 could be ordered from the factory when the car was new but that's getting into very high rpms in highway driving. I like the 3.55 because it offers great torque in city driving and for cruising. - Dave

scumdog
08-09-2017, 05:16 AM
I checked Rockauto for the ring gear/pinion and saw that they donīt sell the 3.10 ratio. They do sell the 3.00, so that should be close enough. Or is there a good reason to put another ratio in there (just for cruising)?


3.00:1 will be OK for easy cruising.

I have 2.75:1 in my F100 with 429 & C6, it will still smoke the tyres and it will do 100mph in 2nd gear hence why I think even with your smaller motor and 3.00:1 gearing it will get the job done.

Frango100
08-09-2017, 03:13 PM
Wouldnīt the 3.50 ratio not cause high rpm/noise during highway driving? I wouldnīt go over 60 mph most of the time.

simplyconnected
08-09-2017, 07:41 PM
Rear end gears determine your rear wheel torque. The question is, how easily does your engine turn the rear wheels? We use transmission gears to help but the rear end gear has the final say because it raises or lowers the torque of ALL your transmission gears (depending on the ratio you choose).

If most of your driving is under 60-mph, the benefit of more torque around town will give you 'new found' horsepower and it might even save a little gas because you won't need as much gas pedal to do the same job.

Yes, highway speeds will require more rpm but that is offset if the majority of your driving is done around town. Let's do some arbitrary numbers... Suppose your engine and trans produced 200-ft/lbs of torque in high gear. Now, you multiply that by your existing gear ratio (200 x 2.75 = 550 ft/lbs of torque). The same torque (200) married to a 3.55:1 would deliver 710 ft/lbs of torque, a gain of 160 ft/lbs. This is a serious advantage and a very inexpensive way to gain horsepower without changing your engine, especially at every traffic light from a first gear stop.

Frango100
08-10-2017, 12:28 AM
I will need to order the ring and pinion next week, so that my collegue can take them with him when he returns from SFO. I already ordered the master bearing kit.
Even with the 2.75 ratio the Bird would accelerate surprisingly rapid, so iīm still tossing if i will go for the 3.00 or the 3.50.
Decisions, decisions....:) .
The rear axle is out, so now i have to find someone who can do the welding.

OX1
08-10-2017, 10:09 AM
3.00:1 will be OK for easy cruising.

I have 2.75:1 in my F100 with 429 & C6, it will still smoke the tyres and it will do 100mph in 2nd gear hence why I think even with your smaller motor and 3.00:1 gearing it will get the job done.

I agree, no way I would go anything over a 3.10 for a non overdrive vehicle. The added accel on the low
end is not worth the RPM drone/screaming on the highway at today's speeds. I might consider a different stall
converter instead of gears, but not sure what is avail for the trans in question.

As for the cracked housing. If you fear repairing it again will not be adequate, I would look
for a 9" truss that mounts above axle. Cut out areas that truss crosses over for upper
link mounts, and weld truss to either sides of those mounts.

Realistically, it was probably just a bad weld as to why it cracked again.
(unless you have some horrendous roads that you drive at high speed over)

Frango100
08-12-2017, 11:01 AM
Today i was just test fitting the side gears and pinions in the carrier housing. With the washer under the side gear, i can install the pinion pin, but the gears will not rotate at all, even when applying quite some force. This doesnīt seem right. When i remove the washer under the side gear, it rotates all fine. Seems that the washer is a bit too thick. Did this happen to someone on here before? I didnīt try the old washer yet, but will do so just for a test. The washer is there to act as a bearing surface, so should not be left out.:confused:

Frango100
08-28-2017, 03:23 PM
My colleague just came back from SFO and brought the DANA drive pinion and ring gear set and the repair sleeves from SKF for the axles with him. I went with the 3.00 ratio, just close to the factory original of 3.10.
Now I have to wait for the rest of the parts to arrive via USPS, than I can start the rebuild. Still waiting on an answer from Rockauto regarding the differential side gears and pinions. The kit from USA standard gear doesnīt fit well. At least, the gears do fit well, but when the washers are installed as well, the gears are impossible to move by hand. Seems that they used too close of tolerances on this.

Frango100
09-13-2017, 04:10 PM
Just a short update: the rest of the parts came in and the build-up of the differential can start. I already pressed the new bearings on the axles and also the bearings on the drive pinion. I was quite surprised that it needed around 6 T of pressure to get the first bearing on the drive pinion. The pinion nut is already on torque, I will only have to remove it again to be able to install the oil seal. The problem with the too close clearance of the differential side gears is not solved yet. But I did read now that USA Standard gear is a second line from YUKON gears. Yukon gears sells the gears which donīt pass their quality control for the tollerances as USA Standard gear stuff. This seems to be my problem now:(

pbf777
09-14-2017, 01:26 PM
YUKON........... "Off-Shore" manufacturing!!!! :eek:

Scott.

simplyconnected
09-14-2017, 02:15 PM
YUKON........... "Off-Shore" manufacturing!!!! :eek:

Scott.

I feel the same, Scott. But anymore, all of our choices are gone! As long as Americans keep buying Chinese goods, these companies aren't stupid, they will continue to produce the stuff we buy.

scumdog
09-14-2017, 03:57 PM
I feel the blame is not so much with the Chinese manufacturer, more with the profit oriented importer who fails to have a good quality control process in place.
I bet the US manufacturers have one.

pbf777
09-16-2017, 11:17 AM
As long as Americans keep buying Chinese goods, these companies aren't stupid, they will continue to produce the stuff we buy.

Absolutely correct!!!

I know we're off topic here, but this needs emphasizing until it is understood by the ignorant! :mad:

Scott.

Frango100
09-17-2017, 08:58 AM
When i had to buy a waterpump for my Jeep, i could get one made in China directly here in Brazil, but i bought one via Rockauto from an "American" brand. I was quite surprised that when it arrived, it stated " made in China" on the box. :mad:

Frango100
09-17-2017, 09:04 AM
Ok, back on topic: the differential third member is complete and put back in the housing. The differential is loosly installed under the bird and just will need a bit more time to be finished. Will be traveling to Holland tomorrow, so expect to be able to test it after my return, in about a week.

Frango100
09-24-2017, 10:28 PM
So today had some time to finish the differential installation and test drive the bird. No more noises from the differential and a very comfortable rear suspension:).
With the weight on the wheels, the rear suspension clappers are much more closed than they where before (the vertical clapper bolts and rubbers are not installed). It all drives very well, i only hear some noise from both clapper ends touching each other when the bird comes down after a traffic bump. So at least some rubber should be between the clapper ends to prevent this noise.

simplyconnected
09-24-2017, 10:48 PM
...i only hear some noise from both clapper ends touching each other when the bird comes down after a traffic bump. So at least some rubber should be between the clapper ends to prevent this noise.With all due respect, if I had a '58 T-bird, I would get a torch and cut those clappers off completely. All they accomplish is to restrict freedom of motion which is what you don't want. Furthermore, they transfer torque to the upper control arms! Again, something you don't want.

So for now, you have your proof. This explains why no other trailing arm suspension uses 'clappers', across all car lines and models. - Dave

pbf777
09-25-2017, 12:20 PM
With all due respect, if I had a '58 T-bird, I would get a torch and cut those clappers off completely. Dave

Originally Posted by Frango100
I donīt think that it will work well without the vertical clapper bolt installed. The axle is hinged to the lower control arm, so when you accelerate, the differential will rotate backwards.................
The differential will rotate forward during braking,:eek:
So there should be some medium in between the clapper ends to restrict the clapper movement, but still to give it some room to move during suspension movement.

Always give sufficient consideration to the original engineering intent prior to discarding such; as you are now, the new "engineer"! ;)

Scott.

simplyconnected
09-25-2017, 01:54 PM
...With the weight on the wheels, the rear suspension clappers are much more closed than they where before (the vertical clapper bolts and rubbers are not installed). It all drives very well, i only hear some noise from both clapper ends touching each other when the bird comes down after a traffic bump. So at least some rubber should be between the clapper ends to prevent this noise.
This is a different story from, "The axle is hinged to the lower control arm, so when you accelerate, the differential will rotate backwards.................
The differential will rotate forward during braking,.."

Neither of us engineered such a screwed-up system. We did learn that the rear axle has four hinges on each side in a parallelogram, not just one hinge. We also learned that 'rolling' is a product of the control arms as the axle moves freely in its range.

Since weight distribution causes the nose to dive and the rear end to lift, naturally there will be some roll because the upper and lower control arms are different lengths. The same happens with the front suspension's control arms.

Frank now has his proof through trial and error. I believe his original apprehension has changed quite a bit. 'Seeing's believing' in this story. Mechanics can visualize the system on paper before it happens. I am baffled that this got passed by Ford Engineers. I'm sure the powers that be had lots of questions for the Mechanical Engineering and Product Development Dept's., over this one. - Dave