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Penelope
04-23-2017, 11:20 PM
I am chasing the holy grail it seems. Has anyone got a spare 3v pulley for a 352 please? Looking to upgrade my '59 to air con....

thank you

YellowRose
04-23-2017, 11:58 PM
Bill, send Carl Heller ~ partsetal a PM. Carl might have what you need, or know where to get it. Or contact the Bird Nest, Tbird Hqs, or some of the other parts houses. Whose equipment are you going to use? I would suggest Classic Auto Air, since they make specific aftermarket AC systems for Squarebirds. They are the ONLY company that I know of who market an off the shelf aftermarket AC system engineered for the 1955-1966 Tbirds. In fact, they might even have that pulley you are looking for.

http://www.classicautoair.com

Their system is called the "Perfect Fit" system. A good number of people are using it, and I know the main CAA technicians there, having helped other Tbird owners put CAA AC systems in their Tbirds.

https://www.classicautoair.com/shop/1959-ford-thunderbird-air-conditioning-system/

DKheld
04-24-2017, 11:08 AM
Hope Carl has one. Scanned the "bay" but didn't see anything except the later 61-63 390 version. Those do not have the pilot for the fan spacer though.

Speaking of which - you may already know but you will need a shorter fan spacer as well. I couldn't find one and believe even Carl didn't have one at the time. Finally found what I needed at Flex-a-lite. Part # 876. 1 inch spacer (you can get those cheap on ebay too). Not 100% certain 1 inch is correct as I was also adding a 70's Ford 400ci flex fan and needed the correct spacing - Carl will know though.

I've wondered lately why you even need the 3V pulley. Believe Classic Auto Air uses a 2V water pump pulley. The pic in the shop manual only shows 2 belts crossing the water pump - Genny and A/C - plus the pulley in the pic does not appear to be the COAE-8509-A pulley.
http://media6000.dropshots.com/photos/260234/20170424/094324.jpg
I suspect the 8509 pulley was used when you also had the 40A generator option with the dual sheave? I installed it on mine but now the A/C belt will not be able to go to the crank pulley only to the water pump sheave. I plan on removing the dual sheave pulley and one belt on the genny then use the belt configuration in the shop manual which will leave an open sheave on the water pump pulley. I have removed the aftermarket compressor bracket and installed a correct one since this pic was taken.

http://media6000.dropshots.com/photos/260234/20130528/b_173640.jpg

The crankshaft pulley is an add on also. You remove the original single sheave add on to the damper (which gave you 2 sheaves on the crank) and add a dual sheave pulley giving you 3 sheaves on the crank. Carl will probably have that crank pulley as well.

I would suggest using a modern system. I've been buying, restoring and adding the factory parts but bet it will not work as well as the modern systems since the OEM evaporator was designed for R-12. I did use a new condenser and drier designed for R-134. I do like the OEM vent rather than adding the two small vents under the dash (but the OEM chrome dash vent is hard to find too!!!). I cut my dash and used an original. The plenum for the dash vent is now available but you will probably only need part of it and have to make something to connect the 2 small round hoses in the modern system to the rectangle dash plenum.

Ugh - I've rambled enough..:o

Good luck - keep us posted on the progress.

Eric

partsetal
04-24-2017, 12:22 PM
Bill says he has a 59 which, along with the 58 uses a two sheave pulley. The 60 uses the 3 sheave as Eric has pictured.
Carl

YellowRose
04-25-2017, 10:06 PM
There was some confusion as to which water pump pulley was needed. Bill was thinking 3 groove water pump pulley, which is what he needed for his '60. But in 1958/59, Ford was using the 2 groove water pump pulley. In '58/'59, the generator then had a 1 belt pulley on it, allowing them to use a 2 belt water pump pulley. For whatever reason, in 1960, they put a dual belt pulley on that generator, which required them to use a 3 groove water pump pulley, I gather. By 1960, Ford was using a B8A-8509-A pulley on 352 non-AC '60 Squarebirds, a C0AE-8509-A (1 1/2" pulley & 2 3/8" pulleys) on 352 AC equipped Squarebirds, and a B9SZ-8509-A on 430 AC equipped Squarebirds according to the Ford Parts Text listing.

I have found the right double sheave water pump pulley for Bill! The Bloodhound strikes again! After talking with a lot of our old, or OEM or NOS parts places, and getting leads from them, I finally found a B8A 8509-F, for the '59 Squarebird. Bill has checked the pix of it out and has bought it. So once he gets that, he can go about ordering his CAA "Perfect Fit" AC system! I did not remember that he already had one on his '60 and is pleased with it. Attached is what the '49-'59 & '60-'64 Ford Parts listing shows what is required for the '58 & '59 & '60 Squarebird water pump pulley.

OX1
04-25-2017, 10:17 PM
Another option for the 430 is the Lincoln
pump and 3rd pulley. Seemed much easier
to find that stuff than bird specific 430 stuff.

http://luxjo.supermotors.net/59%20T-BIRD/AC/AC%20WATER%20PUMP%20PULLEY/IMG_1864.JPG

YellowRose
04-26-2017, 04:29 PM
I have moved this out of the For Sale / Part Wanted Forum, because it no longer needs to be there. It contains a lot of information that anyone in the future, who wants to go this AC conversion route needs to know....

Here is what I have learned about upgrading from a non-AC or AC equipped 1958-1960 Squarebird to a Classic Auto Air "Perfect Fit" aftermarket AC system. Bill ~ Penelope, had gone the CAA route on his '60 Squarebird and plans on going the same route for his '59. I have been diligently looking for the correct OEM water pump pulley for a '59 Squarebird for this conversion for Bill, from Down Under. I found that they are as rare as hens teeth to find. But I DID find one and notified of that, and he bought it.

In the CAA install instructions, the FIRST thing it says is that you must obtain a 3 groove water pump pulley from a factory air 352 CID engine... Because the '60 three groove gives the proper alignment, and spacing between the water pump and the back of the radiator, I gather. It may very well be that whoever did the research on this years ago, looked at a 1960 Squarebird instead of a 1958 or 1959 Squarebird. Back in those first two years, the Ford Parts listing was saying that you needed a 2 groove pulley on a AC equipped Squarebird, the B8A-8509-F. That, supposedly, was because there was only a 1 groove pulley on the generator. But in 1960, sometime during production, they switched to a 2 groove generator pulley, and to a 3 groove water pump pulley to get the correct spacing. And maybe used that third groove for something else.

So here is where we are at. I went looking for the OEM 1958-1959 B8A-8509-F because that is what the Ford Parts Text List says is supposed to be on an AC equipped 352 Tbird. And I found one! However, CAA tells me that the B8A-8509-F may NOT work due to not lining up correctly with their components, or improper spacing between water pump and the back of the radiator. OR... It might! Bill will have to try it and see if it works. The problem might be that it does not have the same spacing and line up compared to what they are showing in the first and the second picture of their water pump pulley, spacer, and fan blade in their instructions.

Bill probably has a SINGLE groove non-AC water pump pulley on his '59 Tbird right now. I have asked him to let me know that, because he probably can use that present water pump pulley that is on there right now. IF that is the case, he has two choices, according to Steve at CAA. In the first picture of their instructions, of the water pump pulley, spacer and fan blade, they show what I understand is a non-AC single groove water pump pulley, spacer and fan. Down in the second picture showing that set up with belts in place, they show a picture with that large, rear pulley and belt, and a smaller pulley and belt in front of it.

Here is what Steve told me in email as to how they used that OEM single groove non-AC pulley for this conversion. I guess they could not find a 3 groove Ford water pump pulley at the time, did some research and found this. They found a GM (Chevy) water pump pulley that slips onto the front of that OEM single pulley water pump pulley! You’ll need to make sure the water pump pulley presently on the car (a large single groove pulley) matches the one pictured in the beginning of the installation instructions. I believe they had a couple different styles around that time period but if theirs matches the instructions they simply just need to purchase a standard GM small block short water pump 2 groove pulley. You’ll add this new pulley to the original which will now make 3 grooves and you should be good to go. Apparently, the inside of that Chevy 2 groove pulley slips over the head of the Ford single groove pulley and gives you the correct spacing and alignment for their Perfect Fit set up.. Now you have 3 belt grooves, but you only use the front and the back. The only reason for using the Chevy pulley is to get the proper spacing and alignment. The CAA Part # for that Chevy pulley is 7-222 and costs $69...

It is entirely possible that the B8A-8509-F will give you the exact spacing and alignment you will need to make their system work properly. OR, you will not be able to use it, and will have to have them ship you the 7-222 Chevy 2 groove pulley to make it all work correctly... IF the latter is the case, you have an expensive pulley you may not need. However, it is the only one in captivity, that I have been able to find and if someone has a busted B8A-8509-F on an OEM AC equipped '58-'59 Tbird, you will have one to sell....

Bill should have, unless someone has changed it out, a big single belt pulley, perhaps a spacer, and a four bladed fan for non-AC 352's... If so, then you should be able to go the Chevy 7-222 route and make it all work... Which, from what I understand from Steve, is what they did to make it work for them. I gather, when they developed this aftermarket system, they could not find the OEM Ford 3 groove water pump pulley either. AND... they found that Chevy 500 2 groove pulley that worked and now stock Chevy 7-222's for this purpose because they know that the Ford version is like gold and hard to find... I hope I have not confused you..

Here is a link to the water pump/pulley info in the TRL. You will see a better pic of my dual groove OEM AC set up, plus you will see a pic on the left, after that, of what a 58-59 single groove water pump pulley looks like, and the C0AE-8509-A cast triple-sheave pulley that was introduced in 1960 looks like.

http://squarebirds.org/images_WaterPumpEtc/index.htm

For those of you who would like to see the CAA "Perfect Fit" installation instructions, here they are.

http://http://squarebirds.org/SB/CAA-PerfectFitAC-6-136 INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS 7-27-16.doc (http://squarebirds.org/SB/CAA-PerfectFitAC-6-136 INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS 7-27-16.doc)

Penelope
04-27-2017, 02:59 AM
Just a quick note to say thanks again to our "bloodhound" Ray for his diligent work in finding me the part. He amazes me with the way he sticks at it... FBI could use you Ray! You are the man.

Once i have both air cons fitted to both cars I will provides pics and updates to all.

DKheld
04-27-2017, 11:25 AM
Thanks Bill (and Ray) - look forward to the install pics and good luck on the install.

As info......:rolleyes:

My '60 was originally non A/C.
Had the single water pump pulley, 2V crank pulley and has PS
https://storage04.dropshots.com/photos6000/photos/260234/20170427/091703.jpg


I removed the OEM 1V add on pulley from the damper and added a C1AE 6312-A 2V pulley to the damper for a total of 3 sheaves on the crank. The C1AE (probably for the '61 Tbird could have been the wrong pulley - book calls for 6A312).
https://storage04.dropshots.com/photos6000/photos/260234/20170427/b_092548.jpg

Added the 3V water pump pulley and kept original belt config. Installed the new condenser which is just a simple bolt in - no mods.
Everything was A-ok.
https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos3/photos/260234/20100615/b_185945.jpg

Just because there is an empty sheave that does not mean it needs a belt. I decided to use the middle sheave on the water pump for the power steering. This destroyed the damper because the belts were moving at different speeds - all has to do with the diameter of the pulleys etc. At this point I had also added the flex fan from the 80's Ford 400 ci engine.

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos4/photos/260234/20111215/b_180249.jpg

Of course the OEM fan spacer will not fit on the nub (pilot) on the COAE 8509-A A/C pulley so you need to find the correct one or buy the aftermarket flex-a-lite spacer.

OEM water pump pilot diameter .625
https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos4/photos/260234/20110531/b_185013.jpg

The fan is the same of course so fits right on the pilot.
https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos4/photos/260234/20110531/b_185140.jpg

The ID of the 6509 pulley fits right over the water pump pilot.
https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos4/photos/260234/20110531/b_185519.jpg

But you are left with a 1.0 OD pilot for the fan.
https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos4/photos/260234/20110531/b_185415.jpg

Which is where the Flex-a-lite spacer fits. It has a 1.0 ID and .625 pilot for the fan.
https://storage04.dropshots.com/photos6000/photos/260234/20130323/154643.jpg

After removing the PS belt from the center WP sheave and putting things back to original config (Oh and replacing the Damper - thanks Carl) I think I would have been OK at this point adding the A/C compressor belt. There would just not be a belt on the center sheave of the water pump pulley (probably not a big deal).

But - because I am a glutton for punishment I added the 40A generator with the 2V pulley (think the 40A generator is from the Ford commercial truck series).

https://storage04.dropshots.com/photos5000/photos/260234/20160427/193411.jpg


This displaces the power steering belt and requires you to move it to the outer sheave on the crank which is where the A/C belt should go if using the 2V pulley on the water pump. BUT - I found other info for the 3V water pump pulley so figured it was not a big deal. HOWEVER - you will need to find a COAE 3A7333-A pulley for the PS pump and still use small washers to give perfect belt alignment. Figured the A/C belt is only driven off the water pump pulley when using the 3A7333 pulley.

https://storage04.dropshots.com/photos6000/photos/260234/20130323/b_132353.jpg


Was using this pic as reference for that info - the A/C belt only goes to the water pump. I doubted seriously there was anyone else crazy enough to try and add the factory components to a non A/C car so figured this was how it came from the factory.
Hard to tell if there is a belt on the center sheave of the water pump pulley. Guess that's how I will do mine unless something goes FUBAR then I'll just leave the center sheave on the WP empty and use the 1V pulley on the generator with the belts back to the'58-59 config.
https://storage04.dropshots.com/photos6000/photos/260234/20170427/b_091704.jpg


I'm really tired of fooling with it. Would have been much better off to go the CAA route like Bill. I just want to goooooo.

https://storage04.dropshots.com/photos6000/photos/260234/20160514/084215.jpg

Eric

Penelope
05-01-2017, 05:24 AM
Wow Eric, I'm giddy reading that, but as usual you did a fantastic job. Lets hope the installs go nice and easy, and from what I can see of the CAA system would not surprise me...

Penelope
05-02-2017, 12:59 AM
...and the first bit of fun, the triple sheave pulley wont fit over the water pump without a spacer so managed track down an Aussie equivalent to the Flex-a-lite that Eric showed.... more to come I'm sure!

YellowRose
05-02-2017, 01:29 AM
Hi Bill, I am glad that Eric posted that information and that you were able to find the equivalent Aussie spacer to fit. So, by your post, I gather you and Wyldie are working on installing the CAA AC into the '60! Good luck and I hope it all goes well. Let me know if I can be of any further assistance with the guys at CAA.

Wyldie
05-02-2017, 08:18 AM
So much fun ahead of me! Luckily Bill is paving the way! Awesome information coming out on the forum, such a knowledgeable and helpful bunch. What a great community! It's easy to get confused on so much miss information out there, great that so many members are willing to go out of there way to help out a fellow tbird enthusiast. I've certainly learnt a lot over the past couple of weeks

Penelope
05-15-2017, 12:38 AM
...and the first bit of fun, the triple sheave pulley wont fit over the water pump without a spacer so managed track down an Aussie equivalent to the Flex-a-lite that Eric showed.... more to come I'm sure!

....and now I know why the triple sheave OEM pulley wouldn't fit....it wasn't an OEM water pump and it had wider gussets on the shaft body, which don't allow the triple sheave OEM to nestle into place. The pump was swapped out because the bearing was getting tight....so I bought a new bearing and shaft and am having a local engineering shop trim and fit it to the old pump. Luckily the impeller is in good order, so now I will have full OEM parts, and my lesson is learnt! When i get it back i will pull the new one and post some photos. Nothing like getting another 4 or 5 people involved in what should have been a simple job:D:D

YellowRose
05-15-2017, 01:07 AM
Hi Bill, thanks for the update. So much for not getting an OEM water pump pulley! I hope that is not the one that I found for you! It probably has not shown up yet. I am glad you figured it out though, and are taking action to make it work.

Penelope
05-15-2017, 09:28 PM
Here are the photo's as promised,

Number 1 is a shot of the aftermarket water pump fitted, you may also see that the shaft is shorter and the gussets are larger than on an OEM water pump.

Number 2 is the side view of same pump.

Number 3 is a shot showing the alignment issues between the billet pulley I ended up sourcing, and as you can see the pulley walls are thicker than the crank pulley, thus not lining up correctly. No doubt if I went with this some big fun would have ensued.

Number 4 is the OEM pulley placed over the aftermarket pump and you can see the gap between the end of the shaft and where the keyway actually is.... large amounts of air in between.

As mentioned in my previous post, I am resurrecting the old OEM water pump, with a new shaft and bearings sorted, a quick clean of the impeller, and I can use the OEM pulley Ray sourced.

Once in place I will post pics of that as well with the air con in place (and the alternator).

Then when that is done its on to putting aircon on the 59 and using the 2 sheave pulley Ray found for me as well.

The fun never stops!!

DKheld
05-16-2017, 10:20 AM
Bill,

I thought I was the only one that when starting a project it never goes as planned (and I mean never). :D

Glad to see you're making progress though and thanks for the pics. Supposed to be around 32C (90F) here today and I will be out on a parts run in the Tbird. Will be wishing I had your A/C unit. Someone asked me one time what temps I expected out of my A/C conversion when I finish it. Told them I didn't know exactly but when I opened the door of my car at a car show I expect the temp at the show to drop a few degrees from all the cold air escaping from my car. Hope yours is the same.

I did just convert my R-12 system in my small pick-up to R-134 last week. Outside temp was 29C (85F) and the air coming out of the ducts was about 5C (42F). That would be nice on my Tbird conversion.

That is an unusual looking water pump - possibly a FE truck pump? Guess it doesn't matter since you will have the correct one on there shortly.

Interested in the alternator conversion too. I had been eyeing the CRAP low mount bracket for the FE as a possibility.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-FE-2-PIECE-ALTERNATOR-LOW-MOUNT-KIT-352-360-390-406-410-427-428/132188841317?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

@ Wyldie...
You're right - this is a great bunch of folks. I'm always learning something on here and hope any info I post helps .....or at least doesn't hurt.....:rolleyes:

Eric

Penelope
05-19-2017, 03:02 AM
[QUOTE=DKheld;108368]Bill,

I thought I was the only one that when starting a project it never goes as planned (and I mean never). :D ]




Well Eric, the A/C went to plan, and is in situ. The alternator is another story... I went with a very well known vendor from Ca and ordered their kit but it looks like there are bolts etc missing...yay as I can seem to get the adjustment arm located anywhere and if I had the bolt I would have a clue...but I dont. The instructions arent all that clear either. I am emailing them to see if they can help but as they are basically a reseller, no doubt they will need to ask someone else.

Fun times!

and to make it all the more amusing, I was putting the other bird away last night, having moved it to work on this one....and the generator light came on and wont go off :eek:

Repeat after me, we love classic cars, we love classic cars...

Wyldie
05-19-2017, 03:46 AM
Haha, all fun and games, I'll come round and give you a hand we'll have both your birds sorted in no time. Have the a/c running just in time for winter! :p

Penelope
05-21-2017, 10:12 PM
Haha, all fun and games, I'll come round and give you a hand we'll have both your birds sorted in no time. Have the a/c running just in time for winter! :p

Cheers Michael, much appreciated. got the alternator mounted and used the old generator brackets and "modified" the vendors adjustment bracket. bottom line is it works! Frankenstein eat your heart out.

I am away this week but will post pics when I'm back.

Penelope
05-30-2017, 09:28 PM
Bill,

I thought I was the only one that when starting a project it never goes as planned (and I mean never). :D

Glad to see you're making progress though and thanks for the pics. Supposed to be around 32C (90F) here today and I will be out on a parts run in the Tbird. Will be wishing I had your A/C unit. Someone asked me one time what temps I expected out of my A/C conversion when I finish it. Told them I didn't know exactly but when I opened the door of my car at a car show I expect the temp at the show to drop a few degrees from all the cold air escaping from my car. Hope yours is the same.

I did just convert my R-12 system in my small pick-up to R-134 last week. Outside temp was 29C (85F) and the air coming out of the ducts was about 5C (42F). That would be nice on my Tbird conversion.

That is an unusual looking water pump - possibly a FE truck pump? Guess it doesn't matter since you will have the correct one on there shortly.

Interested in the alternator conversion too. I had been eyeing the CRAP low mount bracket for the FE as a possibility.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-FE-2-PIECE-ALTERNATOR-LOW-MOUNT-KIT-352-360-390-406-410-427-428/132188841317?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

@ Wyldie...
You're right - this is a great bunch of folks. I'm always learning something on here and hope any info I post helps .....or at least doesn't hurt.....:rolleyes:

Eric

Eric, here are the photo's of the A/C compressor and the alternator. The A/C compressor was from Classic Auto Air and fitted pretty well but the alternator, despite being a "retro fit" designed for the car required quite a deal of fiddling with spacer adjustments, adjustment bracket modification and finally use of original generator mounting brackets. Its now all in though. Tidy up of electrics will be done this weekend (thanks Wyldie :D) and finally, conversion to electric fuel pump tonight. Then she should be a runner.... the fluid you can see on the alternator belt is Evans Waterless Coolant, now dried off....

YellowRose
05-30-2017, 11:00 PM
Bill, that is exactly what my mechanic had to do to my generator mounting bracket to make my alternator work on my '59! Works great!

DKheld
05-31-2017, 10:42 AM
Looks great Bill.

Hopefully will have mine finished up this winter too - just in time for cold weather. :rolleyes:

Also - if anyone following needs an COAE-8509-A OEM type A/C pulley one appeared on the big auction site recently. Fair price I'd think if it goes for the opening bid.

Item # 142393249212 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/142393249212?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

Eric

Penelope
06-01-2017, 03:47 AM
Looks great Bill.

Hopefully will have mine finished up this winter too - just in time for cold weather. :rolleyes:

Also - if anyone following needs an COAE-8509-A OEM type A/C pulley one appeared on the big auction site recently. Fair price I'd think if it goes for the opening bid.

Item # 142393249212 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/142393249212?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

Eric
Thanks Eric, now the carb is in for re-kitting after putting an electric fuel pump on her last night.... this should be it and I hope to hear her roaring again over the weekend.

That's a cheap 3 sheave, at that price its better than money in the bank!