PDA

View Full Version : '66 OEM relays


Cwcb08
10-13-2016, 10:09 PM
Does anyone have the pinout diagram for this style of relay, I'm trying to replace mine with two new Bosch style 5pins and can't get a reading on my multimeter between any two pins

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_thunderbird/ford-thunderbird-emergency-flasher-relay-4-wire-plug-1966.html

http://htsmall.macsautoparts.com/assets/macs/images/size/600x/sku/64-39887.jpg

I can figure white would be 86, the case would be 85, and brown would be 30, just want to figure out 87 & 87a?

jopizz
10-13-2016, 10:48 PM
Check here:
http://www.squarebirds.org/Electrical/TurnSignalSequencer/

At the bottom are the Emergency Warning Relays.

John

Cwcb08
10-14-2016, 12:33 AM
My relays don't look like that, 1 is 4 wire the other is 3 that diagram looks like two 4 wire ("5pin") relays


These are my relays below the colours are: 4 wire ( white-red, blue, white-blue, green-white ) 3 wire ( white-red, blue, orange )

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/CAB8752C-E7D9-4720-9624-31EF9F9DD0ED_zpshxac9knx.jpg
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/C3C428DE-9399-4D3B-BE96-4004AED1109D_zpsz6fmuqk3.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/C3C428DE-9399-4D3B-BE96-4004AED1109D_zpsz6fmuqk3.jpg.html)


This is what I'm attempting to duplicate http://www.tbirdforum.com/forums/attachments/flair-birds-1964-1966/391d1327684383-hazard-relay-upgrade-relay-solution.pdf

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/B50C824D-8FE2-4F78-8897-63E2A1186C22_zps8whcchiw.png (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/B50C824D-8FE2-4F78-8897-63E2A1186C22_zps8whcchiw.png.html)
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/E0A3CF5D-3D14-4C8C-ADC0-4DDF2709B116_zpsai86c9ge.png (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/E0A3CF5D-3D14-4C8C-ADC0-4DDF2709B116_zpsai86c9ge.png.html)


3 wire relay harness built and temporaily grounded to test:
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/5BFBC5A0-1F1C-4829-B86D-C77899BDE6C5_zpsr5uyyair.jpg


started the 4 wire harness before my daughter woke up from her nap:
white-red will go to "30" blue goes to "86" black is "85"
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/87FCCAF2-41D4-4E7F-BC97-2D629F2FB2CD_zpsmkgmmezo.jpg

Cwcb08
10-14-2016, 01:46 AM
ya know..., typing all that and proof reading and taking photos, im not sure it matters what colour wire goes from 87a on each relay terminal to green-white/white-blue on the plug does it? they both get power at the same time and will continue to do so when "30" receives power after my mod

simplyconnected
10-14-2016, 08:09 AM
I'm editing this post to conform with Cody's actual findings as he disassembled his OEM relays...

I'm happy you are using standard modern relays with plug-in sockets. They are only a few bucks per each set.

In your case, you need two normally open contacts, so two single pole aftermarket relays must be used to replace one OEM 4-wire relay and one more single pole aftermarket to replace the 3-wire OEM relay. That makes three new relays. Connect both (30) together to make a common. Then, use each 87 to connect to 694 and 363 respectively.
Of course you will need a good ground for your coil wires (85). Because these relays draw so little current, I would not use that funky sheet metal. Modern cars run a separate ground wire from the battery and so do I. Then, I connect it to everything along the way, clear to the tail light housings. You may find your fuel gauge will be more accurate, too.

http://squarebirds.org/Electrical/TurnSignalSequencer/EmergencyWarningRelayC-64-39887.jpg

Before leaping out the plane, I want you to prove your new relays work. Wire the new sockets/relays per my drawing. Without power to your new relay coils, see if the commons are isolated from the NC contacts, then ADD +12 power and see if commons and contacts all have the same continuity.

I never solder (and neither do OEMs). Instead, I use name brand (T&B, Buchannan, Ideal, Sta-Kon, Panduit, etc.) compression lugs (crimp connectors). For example, I get the yellow (#10AWG) size and cut the fork off. Then I put all the copper wires in the same barrel and crimp it HARD for the absolute best connection possible. If it needs black electrical tape for insulation, ok. If I only have two wires, I use the blue lugs. Let me know what you found. - Dave

Cwcb08
10-14-2016, 10:02 AM
I got this scheme from the Ford diagram: like i said this diagram is not accurate to what is in my car
i have one of these http://htsmall.macsautoparts.com/assets/macs/images/size/265x265/sku/64-39888.jpg and the other is the 4 wire we are talking about http://htsmall.macsautoparts.com/assets/macs/images/size/265x265/sku/64-39887.jpg

I never solder (and neither do OEMs). Instead, I use name brand (T&B, Buchannon, Ideal, Sta-Kon, Panduit, etc.) compression lugs (crimp connectors). For example, I get the yellow (#10AWG) size and cut the fork off. Then I put all the copper wires in the same barrel and crimp it HARD for the absolute best connection possible. If it needs black electrical tape for insulation, ok. If I only have two wires, I use the blue lugs. Let me know what you found. - Dave

so you would do what is shown in the top photo but cut off the right hand side at the insulation and then tape the end?
http://www.campertrailers.org/switchbox8.JPG

the way i was looking at the relay i thought brown would be "30" because it was the biggest wire on the old one and appeared to always be hot in the car at the other end of the stock connector

simplyconnected
10-14-2016, 10:17 AM
...so you would do what is shown in the top photo but cut off the right hand side at the insulation and then tape the end?
http://www.campertrailers.org/switchbox8.JPG

the way i was looking at the relay i thought brown would be "30" because it was the biggest wire on the old one and appeared to always be hot in the car at the other end of the stock connectorYes, IF I wasn't using the stab. In other words, for a splice, I cut off the fork or ring. If you're going to USE the end then don't cut it off.

Your original relays are trash, right? Scratch the side and top so you know the orientation. Take the can apart and show us some pictures. That will tell for sure, what's what inside. I always go by the connectors because colors mean nothing when vendors offer relays and harnesses.

You may be able to ring the coil with your meter because no parts move inside. I believe the three-wire relay simply has one less contact. - Dave

Cwcb08
10-14-2016, 10:29 AM
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/4204204D-27C6-4FB2-81B5-E6114ADFB775_zpstvklryax.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/4204204D-27C6-4FB2-81B5-E6114ADFB775_zpstvklryax.jpg.html)
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/6EB22539-AB53-4152-83F4-9D0776B3ACBF_zpsvgi54hxi.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/6EB22539-AB53-4152-83F4-9D0776B3ACBF_zpsvgi54hxi.jpg.html)
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/25CD7D5F-D5B1-41B5-A3AC-6B6EF833581B_zpsvlm0gk9r.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/25CD7D5F-D5B1-41B5-A3AC-6B6EF833581B_zpsvlm0gk9r.jpg.html)
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/B60D613D-65A8-41D6-833F-A6290BF63436_zps8cqoecs4.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/B60D613D-65A8-41D6-833F-A6290BF63436_zps8cqoecs4.jpg.html)
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/D17B4D83-F034-40A4-9B1F-7D33A3F698A7_zpsxyjd3klz.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/D17B4D83-F034-40A4-9B1F-7D33A3F698A7_zpsxyjd3klz.jpg.html)

simplyconnected
10-14-2016, 11:16 AM
This 3-pin relay's contact is NORMALLY OPEN, not closed! The pictures are excellent. Let's see the 4-pin relay...

Cwcb08
10-14-2016, 11:35 AM
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/E0710669-2AEC-4FB0-8614-8139710708EB_zpsrs6lqhja.jpg
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/048A709B-DC09-4C16-B390-449ABF24EC25_zps7bubt7iz.jpg
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/579435DF-F013-48AF-94AC-1CE57FD7877F_zps626ydc2v.jpg
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/A08AD2EE-FED0-48CF-BE31-499503E558B9_zpsjjx2cumg.jpg
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/AAD31942-371D-4918-9DE6-2E846E9262F5_zpsy2tatlf9.jpg

simplyconnected
10-14-2016, 12:12 PM
Yes, these are the 4-pin relays. Again, excellent pictures.

I edited my post to conform with your findings. If I made a mistake, please let me know.

Rather than using Ford diagram colors and numbers, in this case I'd rather reference your original connectors and pig tails that came from your OEM relays.

Opening the relays told the whole story. I cannot thank you enough because the Ford diagrams are totally different. I know there were changes but the diagrams are ridiculous. - Dave

Cwcb08
10-14-2016, 12:21 PM
thanks Dave! im re quoting this post so the photo is at the bottom of the thread and easy to reference

I'm editing this post to conform with Cody's actual findings as he disassembled his OEM relays...
http://squarebirds.org/Electrical/TurnSignalSequencer/EmergencyWarningRelayC-64-39887.jpg
- Dave

Cwcb08
10-14-2016, 02:02 PM
So next hurdle, the two relays control the front flashers (both sides), with one or the other removed the fronts don't work.


the 3 pin relay controls the rear flashers if I turn the flashers on then plug the relay into the socket everything works!, however if I turn them off and back on it doesn't work

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/5DF3FACA-7F68-438E-B897-6978EB123FAD_zpsh9r1whwv.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/5DF3FACA-7F68-438E-B897-6978EB123FAD_zpsh9r1whwv.jpg.html)

I wonder if they are drawing to much juice, the upside I now know the ammeter works it jumps 1/4" left each flash when front and backs are going

Cwcb08
10-16-2016, 08:52 AM
ok another update, after speaking with simplyconnected yesterday he helped me sort this out, i now have functioning 4ways! my wiring and relays were correct, the problem was the " relays assy turn signal indicator " some PO (previous owner) swapped in a bosch 5pin relay however the oem relay is normally closed, they had it normally open, a few pokes with my multi meter i had it repined and all lights work correctly!


and in the spirit of oem relays, i had to change out the " low fuel level relay " to make the light go out, so here it is disassembled as well:


http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/5C55FC6A-B860-438E-99ED-575962874EA0_zps4wwg9nwo.jpg
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/61AC468D-7BD1-4397-835C-AB27D6B266F4_zpsuot5mogf.jpg
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/C80AE59A-ECC1-40CC-B95B-A98B3203913C_zpsymvzvu3s.jpg
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/D13C2329-FA28-4A03-A31B-4F35EACB42E7_zps9bdte0ko.jpg
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/94FC0715-0880-4410-B6C8-338A86B19F34_zpsylp0ep72.jpg
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/32E3A521-C876-4126-B1BC-402D5227D63A_zpsep7yvkqv.jpg


and this is the "interior light relay" i replaced this one so i have now have guage lights again:

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/10FED4E0-098D-4847-9448-0E955995EB1C_zpsuutydkyp.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/10FED4E0-098D-4847-9448-0E955995EB1C_zpsuutydkyp.jpg.html)
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/A9A26C7A-5E45-4B02-928E-F5D77D9919A9_zpsov5qxkov.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/A9A26C7A-5E45-4B02-928E-F5D77D9919A9_zpsov5qxkov.jpg.html)
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/BE121326-D5D7-41DC-8CDC-DB44C951211F_zpsrogguiij.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/BE121326-D5D7-41DC-8CDC-DB44C951211F_zpsrogguiij.jpg.html)
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/8FB76747-E731-4F76-8721-182A6E0778D4_zps9r5p4dnn.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/8FB76747-E731-4F76-8721-182A6E0778D4_zps9r5p4dnn.jpg.html)
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/1D4C4067-E3C4-46D0-825A-A2D55B08E0C2_zpsagtcstew.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/1D4C4067-E3C4-46D0-825A-A2D55B08E0C2_zpsagtcstew.jpg.html)
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/7DE942FF-BAE7-4590-9BEE-4AD650706526_zpswz1wck3u.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/7DE942FF-BAE7-4590-9BEE-4AD650706526_zpswz1wck3u.jpg.html)

Cwcb08
10-17-2016, 11:09 AM
Alright another question, I solve one thing another comes up, next I need to get the blower fan working (then maybe try and rebuild the window motors all the things I need for a safety certificate here in Ontario)

Is this where the heater resistor was? Some PO put a Bosch relay here ( colours are red, red-black, black-white, and then the green and brown that look to be grounded to the firewall)

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/1185104A-7BFB-4109-B02A-63B595C8C9F3_zpsk8rawfm8.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/Cody_Bowen/media/1185104A-7BFB-4109-B02A-63B595C8C9F3_zpsk8rawfm8.jpg.html)

I checked continuity at the switch and I get 0 and a reading when I flip it so I know at least that works sofar

jopizz
10-17-2016, 11:25 AM
The heater resistor is under the passenger side dash on the blower motor housing. That's the power window relay.

John

Cwcb08
10-17-2016, 11:41 AM
The heater resistor is under the passenger side dash on the blower motor housing. That's the power window relay.

John

ok, thank you!

simplyconnected
10-17-2016, 12:15 PM
Heater resistors are normally mounted so that the resistors protrude into the air passage. Moving air cools the ni-chrome resistors as reduced current lowers fan speeds. Air-cooling also means a smaller resistor can be used.

Problems arise when air flow stops. Then, resistors burn open. Usually the HI speed works because 12-volts is sent directly to the fan motor. - Dave

Cwcb08
10-17-2016, 12:16 PM
after a quick google search i realize i have handled that part without knowing ( when i took the heater box cover off while trying to remove the leaking heater core before giving up trying to remove the back two bolts - for now ) is there a way to safely bypass that part to test the fan motor?

simplyconnected
10-17-2016, 12:18 PM
Yes, simply apply 12 volts to the fan motor. You can do it at the resistor receptacle if you want.

Cwcb08
10-17-2016, 02:18 PM
Yes, simply apply 12 volts to the fan motor. You can do it at the resistor receptacle if you want.

Fan works on high but only if the switch is at 3 and in just the right spot, with the resistor unplugged should the fan be on at every speed setting but at stay high speed?

Also found a few great photos on another forum and got the heater core removed, I can link them here if you guys like

jopizz
10-17-2016, 03:14 PM
With the resistor unplugged it shouldn't work at all. The resistor completes the circuit to ground.

John

Cwcb08
10-17-2016, 03:24 PM
With the resistor unplugged it shouldn't work at all. The resistor completes the circuit to ground.

John

well it's on the back seat and the fan is ON??





this is where i found the photos:

http://www.vintagethunderbirdclub.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=6676

jopizz
10-17-2016, 03:28 PM
It's possible the switch is wired directly to ground on the HIGH setting and only uses the resistor on the lower settings. I've never looked at it that closely. That would make sense why your blower only works on HIGH.

John

Cwcb08
10-29-2016, 09:21 PM
so i replaced the heater core and reinstalled the resistor, good news it works and i have three fan speeds.

i then i ran the motor for ten min (with a family members spare guage temporarily installed):

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/58F9437F-FECB-47C7-BDBE-BFFF6E66490E_zps7fmktwv7.png

and flipped the lever to defrost but didn't feel any heat at the window?

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff400/Cody_Bowen/A00BD605-8023-4E1F-BAE0-C4B735713797_zpsaqo7eaqx.jpg

i also grounded the bottom of the replacement temp sender straight to the battery and the stock gauge didn't move so im thinking i will have to contact dave for the CVR sooner rather than later and rule that out