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GeoffInCarlsbad
06-25-2016, 06:34 PM
Today I replaced my Master Cylinder. Very straightforward, and followed the Shop Manual to a tee.

Why? Because after pressing the brakes, Left & Right Front Wheels would not completely release. Right wheel gets so hot it cannot be touched or handled. Spins with difficulty. It does eventually release when cold. Has Difficulty Releasing when HOT.

You have probably seen my previous threads talking about this challenge. I am simply posting pictures of my progress making this change. See below:

Here I have removed the Shock Tower Strut, removed the 2 nuts holding on the MC, removed the brake line from the brake line fitting, removed the stop light switch wiring, all per the manual:

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee407/geoffincarlsbad/0165a7a04655ae8455b4dc3aa6fbb40b18f9b095b1_600x600 _zps2nnhq2lp.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/geoffincarlsbad/media/0165a7a04655ae8455b4dc3aa6fbb40b18f9b095b1_600x600 _zps2nnhq2lp.jpg.html)

Here is old MC on the bench. Note the rubber seal is still on the bore housing. I was able to reuse the same seal. I went to several auto part shops (O'Reilly, Pep Boys, Auto Zone) and could not find one. Catalogs didn't show them so I had to hope it worked, and it does.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee407/geoffincarlsbad/01666b258de8157d6230d823876de295a64838e296_600x600 _zpspmjwyd7k.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/geoffincarlsbad/media/01666b258de8157d6230d823876de295a64838e296_600x600 _zpspmjwyd7k.jpg.html)

Stop Light Switch and Brake Line Fixture removed and cleaned up.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee407/geoffincarlsbad/01e4ae0be0927e38f00328a98b78579761de82ff04_600x600 _zpsoerkzmct.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/geoffincarlsbad/media/01e4ae0be0927e38f00328a98b78579761de82ff04_600x600 _zpsoerkzmct.jpg.html)

Old v. New

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee407/geoffincarlsbad/01ab923683e8285c61e5ae25a0aa92281d73a2c84b_600x600 _zpslchfgfax.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/geoffincarlsbad/media/01ab923683e8285c61e5ae25a0aa92281d73a2c84b_600x600 _zpslchfgfax.jpg.html)

Newly Installed and just filled with new Brake Fluid. Per the manual, I pressed the brakes serveral times to get the air out before tightening down the brake lines. Worked just fine.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee407/geoffincarlsbad/016c8a7f22b0a7387a4f968cffbc9a1965c5385017_450x600 _zpseb9k4gdx.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/geoffincarlsbad/media/016c8a7f22b0a7387a4f968cffbc9a1965c5385017_450x600 _zpseb9k4gdx.jpg.html)

The results were mixed.

I ran the car for about a 10 mile shake down. I stopped after about 5 miles, and the Right Wheel was very hot. Left Wheel was cool to touch (good). So the Left Wheel is acting properly, while that right wheel is not.

They only thing left to replace are the springs on that Right Wheel. Everything else is brand new (2x).

jopizz
06-25-2016, 06:46 PM
It's possible that you have a blockage in the lines between the master cylinder and the wheel cylinder. It may not be allowing fluid back into the master cylinder fast enough. If you find that the hardware is good after disassembling the brakes then you may want to disconnect the lines at the master cylinder connecting block and the wheel cylinder and blow some compressed air through them. Also inspect the lines themselves to make sure they aren't crimped anywhere.

John

simplyconnected
06-25-2016, 07:59 PM
Thank You for the post and your pictures, Geoff. I have to admit, I'm very confused. Didn't you invest in a power disk brake setup from Tom's? Didn't we discuss your ability to cut, bend and flare brake line?

I'm not criticizing but simply wondering, why did you buy a single-piston M/C?

Yes, you can beat this horse until you have the world's finest drum brakes but they will never perform as well as disk brakes. Wouldn't it be more practical to go in a forward direction and put drum brakes behind you, as all the auto manufacturers have?

I'm still scratching my head...

BTW, that rubber band around the M/C isn't used any more. I think the logic is, the M/C should not exert a hydraulic pressure on the booster and the booster should not pull a vacuum on the M/C so they allow atmospheric pressure between the two. Periodically we hear horror stories about boosters that are filled with brake fluid resulting in clouds of smoke coming out the exhaust pipes from this condition. - Dave

GeoffInCarlsbad
06-26-2016, 12:50 AM
For $33 & an hour's work, it was worth a shot to me to put in a new M/C. I did not want to start cutting and moving things around under the hood, like modifying my Shock Tower Strut, and try to stick to the original design. I would have to do that if I went to a dual resevoir M/C.

I found some material that some other guys put together saying it took them (two very experienced mechanics) 3 full days to do the conversion on their own using one of Tom's Conversion Kits, so that makes me skeptical.

You can probably double or triple that for a novice like myself, especially if I have to start fabricating new lines, modifying tower struts, etc. I have downloaded it, but haven't figured out how to post a link to it yet.

I am trying to save the $350 + $50 shipping(or $599 with new Brake Booster and dual resevoir M/C). Plus new materials for Brake Lines, and trying to modify under the hood for things to fit.

I don't expect Drums to work as well as disks, but for the casual driving experience, drums should be fine.

Something is not allowing those wheel cylinders to release well, and everything has been replaced/redone except the brake lines and the springs. I have inspected the outside and there are no kinks that I can see, and the hoses have been replaced 2x, so they should be fine. I like John's idea of blowing compress air through the lines to see if there is some thing clogging them up.

I am going to post some pics of my Left & Right Strut Bushings. They were a mess, and I replaced them today, the final pieces to the suspension re-build. All the bushings and ball joints are brand new, there is nothing left to replace there unless I start replacing the struts, sway bar, steering linkage, et al. Not going to do that any time soon.

I knew what I was getting into, so I am not disappointed, just frustrated I cannot solve this brake problem.

simplyconnected
06-26-2016, 02:06 AM
...I am going to post some pics of my Left & Right Strut Bushings. They were a mess, and I replaced them today, the final pieces to the suspension re-build...I fully expect that ended the, 'pulling to the right' situation that we discussed at length. Let's hear your findings...

GeoffInCarlsbad
06-26-2016, 02:28 AM
Still jerks to the right.

Yadkin
06-26-2016, 12:46 PM
I'm biting my tongue on the choice of a single master. Modifying the brace took me about ten minutes, and you can leave it off if you can't do that. A single is inherently dangerous. Please, please keep your E-brake system working perfectly.

Drums are OK if you know their limitations, mainly fade over extended use. There are pad materials available that can reduce that, and you may want to investigate that. I've had mine fade in mountain driving; use of a low gear with a good (stock) vacuum to use this big block to help slow you down would have eliminated the the fade that I experienced. I do a lot of mountain driving and don't want that limitation.

Let's focus in on the brake shoe set and adjustment. It's common for a beginner to put the shoes on backwards or just wrong- I've done it myself. Since drums aren't on a lot of new cars, even experienced modern mechanics can have a hard time. Look carefully at the diagrams in the shop manual and inspect your brakes accordingly. Post pictures of your set-up so we can double check.

I recently bought a pair of self-adjusters for my rear brake and they were entirely too short. The cross references in the Raybestos catalogue are wrong. I suspect those are not the only replacements which are not correct, so that may be the problem.

jopizz
06-26-2016, 01:12 PM
He posted pictures is one of the other threads he has open. It appears that he has the shoes installed correctly. The self-adjusters appear to be correct also.

John

Yadkin
06-26-2016, 06:35 PM
He posted pictures is one of the other threads he has open. It appears that he has the shoes installed correctly. The self-adjusters appear to be correct also.

John

I didn't see that earlier thread. There were lots of response so figured y'all had it handled.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=12849&stc=1&d=1466606463

Yadkin
06-26-2016, 06:37 PM
...

Look at that picture carefully relative to the one in your shop manual. The top spring on the right side should be on the lower hole. That spring is not under tension and is not retracting the front shoe. Same with the driver's side.

Yadkin
06-26-2016, 06:44 PM
Here's the picture in my shop manual. Look at the "primary shoe-to-anchor spring, where it mounts to the shoe.

jopizz
06-26-2016, 07:18 PM
He has it correct according to the '61 shop manual. They used a shorter spring on the primary shoe back in '61. I don't really like it but that's the way it came from the factory.

John

Yadkin
06-26-2016, 07:21 PM
He has it correct according to the '61 shop manual. They used a shorter spring on the primary shoe back in '61. I don't really like it but that's the way it came from the factory.

John

All well and good, however he may have the spring for a different year, because looking at his picture, there is no tension on it like there is for the secondary shoe.

Thinking more on this, Ford probably, like you, didn't like the short spring for '61, thus lengthened it and placed the hole further away on the shoe. Aftermarket brake shoes now have two holes. Aftermarket suppliers probably simplified inventory and manufactured only the later springs.

GeoffInCarlsbad
06-26-2016, 09:52 PM
Interesting, so all this time, it could simply be that the shorter spring to the top hole does not pull the Primary shoe back fast enough?

So I need to find a longer spring to run to the lower hole? Can you tell me if that is the same length as the secondary shoe to anchor spring?

BTW, I deleted my rant. Regardless that I tried to keep emotion out, I feel that I violated the nature of the forum by expressing such frustration. But, thank you both for sticking with this.

The only logical conclusion I could see was either the clogged brake lines or the springs.

jopizz
06-26-2016, 10:45 PM
Normally the spring on the primary and secondary shoes are the same. Your '61 is unusual in that it uses a smaller spring on the primary shoe. Return spring kits are pretty easy to find at your local auto store. Wagner H325 is the part number.

John

GeoffInCarlsbad
06-26-2016, 11:06 PM
I spoke with Oreilly and they have them there. I am picking them up in the morning. I'll let you know how I make out.

Mr. Yadkin, thanks, for pointing that out. I work very hard to stay true to the Shop Manual; but obviously there are exceptions.

Thanks to both you of you for hanging in there.

If I can get past this, then I can focus on the "pulls to the right" issue.

simplyconnected
06-26-2016, 11:51 PM
Let's put things in perspective. If you have a mechanic work on your front brakes they will change shoes on both sides. They may even replace the drums, all for a cost (of course).

You changed your M/C but I'm not convinced you set up the brake pedal rod and the booster output rod properly. (Remember my suggestion of using a piece of American cheese?) I didn't hear discussion regarding 'bench bleeding', either.

When we spoke over the phone you tried pulling the upper shoe springs with Channelocks. You said the springs pull hard and they return as they should, indicating the springs are not overheated. You also said the shoes return smoothly when the pedal is depressed and released. Prior to this you said the M/C was good.

Drum brakes are very 'low tech' and when done properly they are very predictable. Ford didn't make the booster, shoes or the drums, Bendix, Inland, Wagner and other vendors did.

We try to help you but we depend on everything you say to be a fact. As we find things 'ain't necessarily so' (like the bushings), we are all led down the wrong path.

Still jerks to the right.

Later, you posted:
...Car pulls to the right when braking. There is a slight fade if a press gently to a hard pull the harder I apply the brakes. Also, it feels like the Right Front wheel is grabbing and turning until is locks up under a hard press... Ok, which is it? The car used to 'snap' and violently pull. These quotes do not indicate that at all.

Regardless, you have changed your suspension so that part is now correct. What direction are you headed, do you intend on moving forward? If not, all this discussion, time, money and work will be a moot issue as soon as you retrofit.

I did my brake conversion in ONE Saturday. I mounted all my devices (hardware) in the morning then I piped the whole car in the afternoon, using bending and flaring tools from Harbor Freight.

If you have all the parts (including disk-ready wheels) and tools for the job there is no reason you can't do the entire job in one weekend. I'm considering plenty of time for breaks and a slow working pace.

There is something wrong with two experienced mechanics who required three days to do this retrofit. I'd like to see their write-up, please. Send it to: simplyconnected@aol.com

Geoff we are here to help answer your questions to give you a better understanding of how and why things work. Our members have done the work you are doing now with T-Birds just like yours. Many problems may be unique but your setup was successfully used on millions of cars.

In closing, many of our members never did a brake conversion before. Larry Noska and Marcelo both come to mind. Larry is retired from AT&T and Marcelo works for a wine company. Both did an even nicer retrofit than a mechanic would because they took special care of their own cars and they didn't cut corners. There is no reason why you can't as well. - Dave

Yadkin
06-27-2016, 08:55 AM
I spoke with Oreilly and they have them there. I am picking them up in the morning. I'll let you know how I make out.

Mr. Yadkin, thanks, for pointing that out. I work very hard to stay true to the Shop Manual; but obviously there are exceptions.

Thanks to both you of you for hanging in there.

If I can get past this, then I can focus on the "pulls to the right" issue.

I found through pure luck, since I was looking at my 1964 manual. As John pointed out, earlier models had shorter springs and used the closer hole. My theory is that parts for the early set-up is no longer available.

My first car was a '72 Ford with front discs, rear drums and I found working on the discs so much easier.

Yadkin
06-27-2016, 09:06 AM
Interesting, so all this time, it could simply be that the shorter spring to the top hole does not pull the Primary shoe back fast enough?

So I need to find a longer spring to run to the lower hole? Can you tell me if that is the same length as the secondary shoe to anchor spring?

BTW, I deleted my rant. Regardless that I tried to keep emotion out, I feel that I violated the nature of the forum by expressing such frustration. But, thank you both for sticking with this.

The only logical conclusion I could see was either the clogged brake lines or the springs.I don't think its pulling it back far enough. Try the new spring kit as others mentioned. Don't use pliers- that's an exercise in pinched fingers or worse. Use KD Tools Automotive Bendix Drum Brake Spring Tool Model # KDT280 to remove and install the springs. O's should have one.

jopizz
06-27-2016, 12:20 PM
If I can get past this, then I can focus on the "pulls to the right" issue.

If your right front brake is not releasing your car will naturally "pull to the right". I think the problem is one and the same.

John

GeoffInCarlsbad
06-27-2016, 03:06 PM
At this point, I am trying the spring replacement route. I have got the springs from a kit, and will work on doing those later this week.

I also brougth the vehicle to another shop this morning to have them have a look to see if there is anything else do be done to alleviate the shoes not retracting. Backplate grooved? Collapsed hose? Bad Line?

As for the pull to the right, there seems to be confusion over "pull" vs. "snap" vs. "jerk". All this this happens depending on the pressure applied to the brake.

As I previously described, a gentle "tap" or applicaion of the brake pedal cause immediate "drift/fade/pull" to the right. The harder the pedal is depressed, the harder the "snap" or "jerk".

So if I really hit the brake short of a panic stop, the wheel "snaps/jerks" to the right, and when I release the pedal, the car very quickly "snaps/jerks" to the left in to a straight alignment. this makes driving rather precarious.

I hope that clears the air on that, and I hope this spring suggestion works out.

Again, thank you for your help. Very greatly appreciated. You guys are awesome, and I would not have learned what I have learned with out your experiences and wisdom, and putting up with my mundane ane repetitive quesitons.

I'm out.

scumdog
06-27-2016, 03:31 PM
The pull to the right seems to be purely because that particular brake is working properly and the left one is not functioning as it should. My 2-cents worth.

jopizz
06-27-2016, 05:05 PM
The pull to the right seems to be purely because that particular brake is working properly and the left one is not functioning as it should. My 2-cents worth.

The right front overheats and locks up to the point where he can't spin the wheel. That's not working correctly. If the springs don't alleviate the problem then I suggest you do as I mentioned earlier.

1. Loosen the nuts on the master cylinder and pull it out slightly. If the wheel releases then you need to adjust the push rod.

2. Open the bleeder on the wheel cylinder and release some fluid. If the wheel frees up then you know it's a hydraulic problem and not mechanical.

John

Yadkin
06-27-2016, 06:19 PM
As for the pull to the right, there seems to be confusion over "pull" vs. "snap" vs. "jerk". All this this happens depending on the pressure applied to the brake.

As I previously described, a gentle "tap" or applicaion of the brake pedal cause immediate "drift/fade/pull" to the right. The harder the pedal is depressed, the harder the "snap" or "jerk".

So if I really hit the brake short of a panic stop, the wheel "snaps/jerks" to the right, and when I release the pedal, the car very quickly "snaps/jerks" to the left in to a straight alignment. this makes driving rather precarious.

A slight amount of pull will happen with drums unless you have both sides adjusted the same. But as you described, plus the heat and dust issues, this is far beyond "normal".

GeoffInCarlsbad
06-27-2016, 06:25 PM
Once I get the springs on and adjust the brakes. I'll do as John suggests.

simplyconnected
06-27-2016, 06:43 PM
Without a physical inspection this problem will always pose unanswered questions. All we can do from here is play the guessing game.

For instance, what does the RH drum surface look like, is the spindle bent, etc. I would need to see and feel it for myself. Physical evidence speaks for itself and it has nothing to do with opinions or feelings. 'It is what it is,' but every portion of the mechanics can be measured and tested.

How much travel do shoes really need to retract? 1/4"? 1/8"? 1/16"? 1/64"??? None of the above.

Properly adjusted drum brake shoes lightly touch the drums, to the point where a slight 'scuff' can be heard and felt. Residual valves and self-adjusters are designed to keep the shoes just off the drums as well. So, how much retract spring travel is necessary? About as much as disk pads move (without long or short springs); practically nothing, just relieve pressure.

Tom raises a valid point about both sides having equal brake-HP. John's answer is just as valid and so is his 'hydraulic relief test,' suggested over a week ago but never tried.

This problem begs for an experienced brake mechanic. BTW, good brake companies offer a written warranty that covers their parts and labor because their business reputation depends on keeping their customers happy.

As an aside, wheels do not orient on the hub, the conical lug nuts center the wheel and keep it from moving on the hub. By design, most wheel centers never touch the hub. - Dave

GeoffInCarlsbad
06-27-2016, 08:30 PM
Hi guys:

I want to thank you all for all the thought and suggestions thrown my way on this vexing issue.

I took it into a brake shop this morning and I'm going to let some folks who can see what's going on have a crack at this. It's too hard to do from afar at this point.

I appreciate everyone's help on this.

Hopefully some local help who can eyeball this can help.

All my best to each of you.

Dakota Boy
06-27-2016, 11:44 PM
http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10923

I had some weird issues with drums as well. See attached link above. Maybe it will be helpful. Good luck

jopizz
06-28-2016, 12:35 AM
Hi guys:

I want to thank you all for all the thought and suggestions thrown my way on this vexing issue.

I took it into a brake shop this morning and I'm going to let some folks who can see what's going on have a crack at this. It's too hard to do from afar at this point.

I appreciate everyone's help on this.

Hopefully some local help who can eyeball this can help.

All my best to each of you.

I would appreciate it if you can let us know what they find.

Thanks,

John

pbf777
06-28-2016, 11:09 AM
As an aside, wheels do not orient on the hub, the conical lug nuts center the wheel and keep it from moving on the hub. By design, most wheel centers never touch the hub. - Dave[/QUOTE]

This may be a good subject for a new forum topic?

I am trying not to offend anyone, so I will reframe from commenting, but, explore this a little.

This has proven a constant problem with the poor engineering of after-market wheels which do not take in account the original factory engineering intentions. Scott.