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Ickaber
04-19-2016, 08:25 PM
Some of you may recall that last week I determined that I had a bad stop light switch. So I ordered one from Rock Auto and it arrived today. All the manual says about replacing these is to unscrew the old one and screw in the new one. Sounded like an easy lunch time job. But...

In looking at it, I'm wondering if when I unscrew it if all of the brake fluid is going to drain out of the M/C. Especially since the pics in the manual show the stop light switch as being on the top of the M/C, but mine is actually on the bottom.

Which led me to looking in my M/C, where all of the fluid is brown. My understanding is that this means that I have rust in my lines.

So, first things first....am I looking at flushing the lines, or replacing them?

Ickaber
04-19-2016, 08:36 PM
Here is the current contents of my M/C. (Yuck!)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/---5AWqI--oA/VxbACtQW5dI/AAAAAAAAJw4/sd78g33MlLwt30sjwGVa6cwI8PJES0cOgCCo/s640-Ic42/IMAG2238.jpg

And this shows my stop light switch on the underside of the M/C, instead of the top as indicated in the manual. Not that it matters much at this point, I guess, but I'm still curious -- if I take that out is the M/C going to just drain into my engine compartment?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IibCUdeUXpc/VxbACaF-JOI/AAAAAAAAJw0/WQ01G0G5T_o7teeSU3Cf36lHOFfcKs9NwCCo/s640-Ic42/IMAG2237.jpg

jopizz
04-19-2016, 09:05 PM
The fluid will come out but not as quickly as if you stepped on the brake. The opening is not that large so it will drip out. Just put something under it to catch it and quickly swap the switch out.

As for whether to change out the fluid do you know how old is it. If you're not sure change it. Just because it's dark doesn't necessarily mean it's contaminated. Even if every part of your brake system is new it's eventually going to get dark.

John

Ickaber
04-19-2016, 09:10 PM
I've owned the car for 3 years and have never changed it. I have no idea prior to that. So looks like I'll be doing that soon.

Thanks, John.

simplyconnected
04-19-2016, 09:57 PM
Scott, this is so serious I don't know where to begin. That color is typical of rust from INSIDE your brake lines. The brake fluid has become so saturated with water, it now promotes rust. All new brake fluid is water-clear and it should be changed AT LEAST every three years.

Also know, if this is DOT-3, it is water soluble because it is glycol-based, like antifreeze but concentrated. All those horror stories about brake fluid eating paint go right out the window when a common garden hose washes it off.

Get a turkey baster from the dollar store and suck out all you can from that nasty looking reservoir. Unscrew your old brake switch and screw in the new one. Air will be in your brake system but it needs to be bled anyway.

Pour fresh brake fluid in the reservoir and follow your shop manual to properly bleed your brakes. Keep pumping that pedal until the fluid runs clear at each wheel cylinder.

If you spill brake fluid, use water to wash it down. - Dave

Ickaber
04-19-2016, 10:54 PM
Dave, I understand that's where the rust is, which is why I was asking if I should bother flushing the fluid, or if I should just plan on replacing the lines altogether.

The good news is I've replaced the switch already and my brake lights work again. :)

jopizz
04-19-2016, 11:28 PM
I don't recommend anyone drive a car with 53 year old brake lines. If they've never been replaced now is the time to do it before disaster strikes. With a single master cylinder a leak means no brakes front or rear.

John

Yadkin
04-19-2016, 11:40 PM
My prioritized check list when buying a classic:
1. New brake lines, convert to dual master, four new slave cylinders.
2. Everything else.

Ickaber
04-20-2016, 12:26 PM
Scott, this is so serious I don't know where to begin.

I don't recommend anyone drive a car with 53 year old brake lines. If they've never been replaced now is the time to do it before disaster strikes. With a single master cylinder a leak means no brakes front or rear.

My prioritized check list when buying a classic:
1. New brake lines, convert to dual master, four new slave cylinders.
2. Everything else.

Understood. Thanks, guys.

So now let me ask some additional questions. My power booster hasn't worked since I've owned the car. I was just getting ready to ship it off to be rebuilt. I'm not ready yet for a conversion to disc, but as I'm replacing/fixing/getting parts I'd like to keep disc conversion in mind so that it is as easy and cost effective as possible in the future. To that end:

1. When I'm ready to convert to disc, will I need a different booster? So rather than spend $150 on rebuilding the one I have, I should just get a different one now?

2. What dual M/C do you recommend?

3. What kind of brake line do you recommend?

Thanks, as always.

Scott

Yadkin
04-20-2016, 04:51 PM
Look in the technical resource library. http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15295

There's a long write-up of a booster/ master/ disc brake conversion. Plan your booster/ master for this as you will likely want disc brakes in front at some time.

For a dual master/ 4 wheel drum conversion, you don't need a proportioning valve. However you will need one if you move up to discs. They are not that expensive, you'll need some kind of manifold anyway, and since you are installing new lines it's easier to put one in now then later. Get an adjustable one, and has a fitting for your brake light switch. All the proportioning valve does is reduce pressure to the rear brakes, so you can set it to 100% if you have drums at all corners.

I just converted to front discs myself; the kit was $375.

Ickaber
04-20-2016, 05:00 PM
Look in the technical resource library. http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15295

There's a long write-up of a booster/ master/ disc brake conversion. Plan your booster/ master for this as you will likely want disc brakes in front at some time.

For a dual master/ 4 wheel drum conversion, you don't need a proportioning valve. However you will need one if you move up to discs. They are not that expensive, you'll need some kind of manifold anyway, and since you are installing new lines it's easier to put one in now then later. Get an adjustable one, and has a fitting for your brake light switch. All the proportioning valve does is reduce pressure to the rear brakes, so you can set it to 100% if you have drums at all corners.

I've been doing some reading of other posts, and think I'm close to understanding what I need, but will read through that link to be sure. Thanks.

I just converted to front discs myself; the kit was $375.

What kit did you use? That price seems familiar -- Auto City Classic on eBay, I believe.

Ickaber
04-20-2016, 05:19 PM
What kit did you use? That price seems familiar -- Auto City Classic on eBay, I believe.

Nope, it was tomsclassic. He's got the kit without booster and master cylinder for $375, or with them for $600. It seems I can get my own booster and M/C for a lot less than $225.

I'd love to know if that's the kit you used, as I've been eyeing that one for a while myself.

Yadkin
04-20-2016, 07:05 PM
Nope, it was tomsclassic. He's got the kit without booster and master cylinder for $375, or with them for $600. It seems I can get my own booster and M/C for a lot less than $225.

I'd love to know if that's the kit you used, as I've been eyeing that one for a while myself.

I used Toms Classic, from his ebay store. $225 is a bargain for a booster and M/C.

Yadkin
04-20-2016, 07:13 PM
By the way I sold my old (original, never rebuilt, but working) booster on ebay for $73. I used a generic slimline booster because I had a clearance issue with my Offenhauser valve covers, so the core was of no value to me. Evidently it was valuable to others.

Yadkin
04-20-2016, 07:29 PM
Well, maybe not a bargain, but close to it. Looking back, I paid $175, but had to do some fabrication, and it has a 1-1/8" piston. You should get a master with a 1".

simplyconnected
04-20-2016, 08:44 PM
When all four wheel cylinders ran off of one distribution block, they equalized by themselves.

A common dual piston M/C splits the system so you need a combination proportioning valve to equalize both systems regardless of drum/drum, disk/drum or disk/disk. The valve also meters, to apply the rear brakes first, then the front. If a line ruptures, the spool shuts off the faulty system so you don't run out of brake fluid. The valve also energizes a warning light.

Pirate Jack has good prices on brake components. - Dave

Wingman65
05-30-2016, 01:51 PM
I got my 9 inch booster from Pirate Jack for 80 bux and free shipping. With minor modifications to push rod connector I was able to use original booster bracket making the whole master cylinder brake booster assembly a bolt on setup.

simplyconnected
05-30-2016, 02:36 PM
Good job and good price, Tony. A brand new booster with warranty for $90 is a good deal and I love your fabrication. It looks simple and clean.

If your brake lines are original, I hope you change them. Brake fluid is always clear when new. It also rarely ever gets changed so that brownish-red color in the reservoir comes from fifty years of rust INSIDE your brake lines, where you can not see the erosion. Now that you have a new master and booster, proper high brake pressure is restored to 'new' so your steel and rubber lines must be up to the task.

Replacing brake lines is easier done than explained. Once you do your first line the rest go a lot easier. Start on the rear axle where the lines are short and straight. Use the old lines to practice your bending skills. - Dave

Ickaber
05-09-2017, 06:59 PM
I'm getting ready to start ordering parts to convert my '63 to disc brakes. I'd like to get some opinions on ordering the Scarebird kit ($320) (https://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=65&product_id=209) versus Tom's Classic kit on eBay, either with booster and MC ($599) (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-1962-1963-1964-ford-thunderbird-front-disc-brake-conversion-power/351569891992?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%2 6asc%3D40130%26meid%3D8f3fd0f9c02744898c549bf21028 5d0b%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Da g%26sd%3D231714462223) or without booster and MC ($375) (http://www.ebay.com/itm/231714462223?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT).

I know Yadkin used the Tom's classic, and that one seems to be a more complete kit, for not significantly more money. But, I've seen lots of references to Scarebirds over the years, so am wondering if there is something inherently desireable about them. (Other than that he is somewhat local to me.)

I will be needing a new booster and MC, as well, in case that sways anyone's opinion. I'm open to opinion on anything from functionality to appearance or anything in between.

Thanks.

jopizz
05-09-2017, 07:18 PM
According to the Scarebirds description you can use your standard 14" rims. I wasn't aware of that. If it is true then that can save you some money not having to buy new rims which you will need according to Tom's. Also the Scarebirds kit uses standard off the shelf parts. If Tom's goes out of business do you really know what brake pads or calipers and rotors to buy? Dollar for dollar it appears that Tom's kit is a better buy but there are other things to consider. I like being able to go to my local store and get parts rather than having to depend on Tom's to be around five years from now.

John

Ickaber
05-09-2017, 07:31 PM
Also the Scarebirds kit uses standard off the shelf parts. If Tom's goes out of business do you really know what brake pads or calipers and rotors to buy? Dollar for dollar it appears that Tom's kit is a better buy but there are other things to consider. I like being able to go to my local store and get parts rather than having to depend on Tom's to be around five years from now.

I asked that question of Tom's some time ago and their response was:
79 malibu calipers and pads
78 granada rotors

jopizz
05-09-2017, 07:46 PM
It appears they are using the same or similar parts as Scarebird recommends. I question Scarebirds claim that you can use your stock rims. That really only leaves the mounting bracket. Scarebirds one piece bracket appears better made but I don't know for sure. You're probably going to add $90-100 to get the rotors, calipers and hoses to use the Scarebird kit which makes Tom's kit a much better buy. Maybe Steve (Yadkin) can chime in.

John

DKheld
05-10-2017, 11:25 AM
The OEM wheel on my '60 has a center hole approx 2 9/16.
This did not fit over the Granada rotor.
Wheels on the '63 may be different???

I wound up using 80's Crown Vic 14 inch wheels to fit over the snout on my Granada rotors.


https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos2/photos/260234/20080828/075326.jpg

https://storage03.dropshots.com/photos3/photos/260234/20060712/b_200431.jpg

(also using Granada calipers and spindles.....only thing available 12 years ago when I converted my '60)

Hope that helps....

Eric

Ickaber
05-10-2017, 01:19 PM
I question Scarebirds claim that you can use your stock rims.

Wheels on the '63 may be different???


I don't have stock rims, but they are 14", so it's probably a crapshoot no matter what I choose.

simplyconnected
05-10-2017, 01:28 PM
It appears they are using the same or similar parts as Scarebird recommends. I question Scarebirds claim that you can use your stock rims...

The OEM wheel on my '60 has a center hole approx 2 9/16.
This did not fit over the Granada rotor.
Wheels on the '63 may be different???...We may be assuming too much about the Scarebird claims.

$320 is FAR too expensive for a couple brackets. I see the hubs are also included in the kit, but wait... Don't hubs normally come with rotors and at a much lower cost?

Someone may want to call Scarebird because it is possible that these are 10" rotors with turned down snouts to accommodate OEM wheels. That would justify the high price because SQUAREBIRD brackets are half the cost, at $170.

I personally do not like this approach because I want bolt-on rotors I can buy over the counter. I wouldn't go any smaller than 11" rotors, either. Hey, I'll buy new 'disk ready' 14" rims if that's what it takes. - Dave

Ickaber
05-10-2017, 02:20 PM
Someone may want to call Scarebird because it is possible that these are 10" rotors with turned down snouts to accommodate OEM wheels.

Per oreillyauto.com, rotors for a 1997 Aerostar have an OD of 10.28".

And oddly, the rotor alone is $34-$36 each, or the rotor and hub assembly is $30-$31 each. Here are the listed specs on a rotor and hub assembly:
Disc Brake Rotor And Hub Assembly
Front Left
Rear Wheel Drive
Bolt Circle Diameter (In): 4.500 Inch
Bolt Circle Diameter (mm): 114.30mm
Number Of Bolt Holes: 5
Outside Diameter (In): 10.280 Inch

ADDITIONAL DETAILS
Center Hole Size (In): 2.330 Inch
Nominal Thickness (In): 0.875 Inch
Discard Thickness (In): 0.811 Inch
Overall Height (In): 4.130 Inch
Solid Or Vented: Vented

So if the Scarebird setup has turned down snouts, we'd expect the overall height to be less than 4.130", right?