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Yadkin
12-20-2015, 09:21 PM
This is brand new roller set from Crane, only 300 miles on them. I had to reset the intake and so a new adjustment on the valves. Only four of the 16 lifters act "normal", with the internal return spring holding the lifter to maximum length. I primed the oil pump for several minutes and no change. Lots of oil pumping through the rocker sets.

This is the second set of lifters that has collapsed. Pushrods are custom length, solid tip, my originals were hollow. I have assumed that the lifters receive oil from the block, through the sides, so the solid tips would not be a problem. Am I wrong?

simplyconnected
12-21-2015, 01:12 AM
If we are talking about an FE engine, when you tore it down you will have gone through the oil galleries for the lifters with a brush, like a rifle barrel cleaning brush on a long rod.
Here is the rear of an FE block:

http://www.squarebirds.org/simplyconnected/390Build/DSCN7439.jpg
The two holes above the cam are the lifter galleries. They go straight through the block:

http://www.squarebirds.org/simplyconnected/390Build/DSCN7441.jpg

From the FRONT of the block they look like this:

http://www.squarebirds.org/simplyconnected/390Build/DSCN7413.jpg

Notice two important facts, the hole on the left of the cam is also a bolt hole for the cam's thrust plate and the one on the right side of the cam is recessed.

The top hole feeds oil to the camshaft...

http://www.squarebirds.org/simplyconnected/390Build/DSCN7417.jpg

... and then the crankshaft:
http://www.squarebirds.org/simplyconnected/390Build/DSCN7414.jpg

Typically, Chevy engine builders miss these plugs. You need all of them. After I install plugs, I clinch the edge of the hole with a chisel so the plug cannot push out under oil pressure.

Let's see pictures of your plugs. If one is missing, how would I know without seeing the pictures? - Dave

Yadkin
12-21-2015, 08:49 AM
Yeah this is my FE. My local builder did the work. We did several mods to the oiling system consistent with rabodniks recommendations. Galleries were cleaned, deburred, tapped for threaded plugs, cleaned and recleaned. He assembled the bottom end and heads in his clean room, and I assembled the rocker set on up.

Yadkin
12-21-2015, 08:56 AM
Spring travel for the "good" lifters is 1.5 turns. Crane recommends 1/2 to 1 turn preload. So this last time I set all 16 at 3/4 up from the bottom, which is the same as 3/4 from the top.

simplyconnected
12-21-2015, 11:14 AM
Steve, I don't know what screw pitch your 'turns' are following and I see no pictures. But I think you know how I set mine up. These issues you are having are strange to me as I have not had a failure. I set my intake manifold once and done, which is no different than the factory.

I guess everyone has their own way. To impart my methods only serves to upset others so I've learned to, 'say it once and let it go.'

I do extensive Oil Modifications to my FEs and I document them (http://www.squarebirds.org/simplyconnected/390Build/OilMods.htm). Also notice that I chase all the threads in my castings. I make sure all threads are clear & smooth and they go full depth. I sink a magnet then I wash the holes out using high pressure.

Most shops won't be as meticulous or demanding because time is money. - Dave

Yadkin
12-21-2015, 11:56 AM
Strange indeed. This builder has the best reputation in the area. It's hard to imagine that he screwed this up.

I inspected the lifters after 300 miles and everything looked fine, no scoring on the sides.

The valve lash adjusters are 7/6"-20, so 3/4 turn equates to about 0.04". The adjuster ball sits in the lifter cup, and of course the rod ball on the bottom sits in the lifter cup. At 0.04" clearance the push rod will maintain its position (but will rattle like heck).

I'm not sure how to proceed. I'm not far from being able to start the engine to see if the engine will pump up the lifters at high idle speed. It should pump oil better than my 3/8" plug-in drill (which got quite hot after a minute or so). This shouldn't hurt anything if not, as long as I don't run it long. At least if I do this I'll know that the alternative- pulling the manifold again and checking oiling to each lifter bore, is warranted.

scumdog
12-21-2015, 01:01 PM
Did you rotate the crank etc when you primed the oil system?

Yadkin
12-21-2015, 02:54 PM
I primed the oiling using an electric drill through the distributor hole. I rotated the crank by hand many times while setting valve lash.

simplyconnected
12-21-2015, 04:05 PM
...I inspected the lifters after 300 miles and everything looked fine, no scoring on the sides.

Scoring is one issue but another is debris (or something) holding the check valve open. You can only see this if you take lifters apart. There is no magic here as everything is self-evident. That's the first place I would look. Or, you can simply send them back for another go-around, not knowing why, again.

...The valve lash adjusters are 7/6"-20, so 3/4 turn equates to about 0.04". The adjuster ball sits in the lifter cup, and of course the rod ball on the bottom sits in the lifter cup. At 0.04" clearance the push rod will maintain its position (but will rattle like heck)...

Preload should be ok at that depth, if you really are going down that far. This requires a 'touch' that most don't have. At .030" preload your pushrods should be solid and quiet, (like mine are). I hope you get to the bottom of this soon. Lifters do not go bad by themselves in 300 miles. - Dave

Yadkin
12-23-2015, 07:51 PM
I finally got some time to finish up, and today I started the engine with the new "preload" settings of 3/4 turn off from bottoming out. It's very noisy, obviously coming from the valve train, but not alarmingly so.

I let it idle to full temperature and the electric fan cycling on. I blipped the throttle a few times and held it at 1500 rpm for about 1/2 minute. No decrease in noise.

I'm sure I can increase the preload to 1.5 turns and turn these effectively into solid roller lifters but that defeats the purpose of having quiet, low maintenance hydraulic lifters.

I guess from here I have no choice but to pull it all apart again. What a chore. I wish there was some way to diagnose this with just the valve covers off.

Once I get it apart I'll check each lifter bore for oiling. I can't believe he'd screw that up by plugging most of the (at least 12 out of 16) holes. I don't see how it's possible, really. I'll have a conversation with him before I do this.

I'm thinking maybe that the taller roller lifters don't have the oiling area in the right place for this engine. Maybe the oiling holes are "trapped" in the wide OD portion of the lifter. If that's the case then the easiest thing to do would be to machine a wide, shallow groove in each lifter to intercept the hole and pressurize the narrow OD area.

simplyconnected
12-23-2015, 10:11 PM
Steve, in each case new lifters worked just fine. Then after running awhile, they started failing one by one. That proves, the holes are getting oil. I don't think the bores are scored.

I think junk (steel, aluminum or dirt particles) is entering the lifter and screwing up the internal components. Dirt can wedge between the check valve seats, holding it open. This condition tends to collapse the lifter because all the oil bleeds out under the pressure of the push rod, so they never pump up. But they did when new...

Spread out a white paper towel and carefully disassemble lifters. There are only a few internal parts in each but they are precision (hardened and ground). Some use a round ball so be careful not to lose it. Any obstruction will show up on the towel. When you reassemble, they are easy to check for proper function before reinstalling.

These lifters should NOT be noisy. They should run smooth as glass for many years. I have no issues with my rollers and you shouldn't either. Soon, you will find the culprit.

When I was a teen, I hung around the Royal (Pontiac) Racing Team, here in Royal Oak. They discovered a problem with their oil pump's pressure relief valve. It was a simple ball and spring but it was hanging up. Debris was holding the ball open. The solution? A smaller ball allowed debris to pass through which solved all their troubles. - Dave

Yadkin
12-23-2015, 11:37 PM
12 out of 16 get dirt in them? Anything's possible Dave but I'm pretty meticulous about cleanliness when I'm inside an engine. And I did change out the oil completely after I installed these new Cranes. I have a magnetic tip on my oil drain plug and there was little to nothing on it- that was my initial break-in. I'm guessing about 250 miles. Since there was little on that I didn't bother to open up and inspect the filter. Probably not a wise move, as aluminum would not attract itself to the magnet...

However I'm not sure if they were installed correctly the first time. A mechanic that I sold a car to owed me some money, and offered to work it off by helping me change out the Comp set. He set the preload on each, and I don't think he was as careful as I was. Together we did the job in about two hours, with just me it took eight or so.

That was quite a while ago. I may have driven the car 300 miles since then. I have a lot going on at my real job (the one that pays for this hobby), plus believe-it-or-not I have a life, and don't remember all the details of that day.

I've done a bit of searching on other forums and one post reminded me of Comp's recommendation of 1/2 to 1 turns preload. This guy set preload at 3/4 turn, the set was noisy, so did an additional 1/4 turn and the set got quiet.

For my adjusters with 20 threads per inch, that range turns out to be 0.025" to 0.05". Right now I'm at 3/4 turn, which equates to just shy of 0.04". It won't hurt to add another 1/4 turn to the entire set and see if that solves the problem.

If it doesn't work, then yeah, I'll definitely take apart each lifter. I'll tag each pair so they go back in the same bores. Then I'll go at them one at a time, using my magnifying lamp in my office.

And I'll also inspect the bores and measure the holes relative to the lifters.

simplyconnected
12-24-2015, 01:17 AM
12 out of 16 get dirt in them? Anything's possible Dave but I'm pretty meticulous about cleanliness when I'm inside an engine...

...And I'll also inspect the bores and measure the holes relative to the lifters.Why, that's amazing! You KNOW what is inside an oil gallery without seeing inside? Steve, you're a better man than I am, especially since a third person 'cleaned' the block.

You won't need a magnifying glass. Trust me, the evidence will present itself right before your eyes. - Dave

Yadkin
12-24-2015, 09:32 AM
No need to get sarcastic Dave.

simplyconnected
12-24-2015, 11:38 AM
Steve, this is Christmas Eve and I have nothing but love in my heart for you and empathy for your situation. Merry Christmas, my friend.

I'm not totally good with the way engines are oiled but these are the facts... Oil, and everything in it, goes through your pump rotors first then it splits two ways. Either it continues to the filter or it gets dumped back to the oil pan from the pressure relief valve. If oil goes to your filter 'junk' may get trapped in the element or the internal bypass valve will open. All oil from the filter goes to your oil galleries for distribution.

When an overhaul is performed it is absolutely imperative that all plugs be removed in the block and all ports are reamed (usually with a long brush in solvent). This should dislodge dirt in the nooks and crannies. High pressure wash is next, in both directions of each port.

Let's stop right here. I've seen various degrees of the above 'cleanliness'. The factory cannot afford failures because they need to ship 1,000 good engines per day. Huge money is spent on machines that perform the washing process after all machining is done.

Since 'time is money' little shops normally don't chase all the threads and they may miss a plug or two. Sometimes this is due to having many people work on an engine. Quite frankly, this is the reason I take lots of pictures during the process. I instruct the machine shop to only install cam bearings after they wash. I check cam bearing orientation then I use high pressure in all the galleries before I install all the plugs. If anything is left in a gallery it may eventually affect the working components (like roller lifters).

A small nick in the crank from a connecting rod bolt thread will peel Babbitt bearing material off in a circle. It's made of tin, copper and antimony. With any luck the bearing will still work but where does the debris go?

Many mechanics will only buy 'factory' short blocks, then build from there. This is where crate engines shine because they were made on the same assembly line with production engines. The equipment is state of the art and the assemblers make 1,000 good engines per day every day.

Bottom line: Mechanical parts always leave witnesses behind. I let them speak for themselves. One of our members had a cam bolt back out. It sent aluminum pieces from the timing cover into the oil pan but the engine kept running until the fuel pump eccentric fell off. Someone forgot the Loctite. - Dave

Yadkin
12-28-2015, 05:37 PM
Thanks for the sentiment Dave.

My son is here for a few days from Boeing's annual Christmas shut-down and he's helping me with this. He's an engineer at their BR&T facility, just received an award for his work on robotic assembly, so he sort of knows his stuff.

We removed all lifter pairs and checked the block oiling galley for alignment with the lifter small OD, and they are lined up perfectly. Then we charged the oiling system to check for flow in the galley. Each side is fed from the rearmost lifter bores (4 and 8 exhaust), and each adjacent is then fed in turn. After checking the rear bores we inserted lifter pairs 4 and 8 and then checked for oiling at 3 and 7. Then we did this for the next pair up to the front. For #1 and #5 exhaust we inserted singler lifters into the intake bores.

Kevin Bush installed threaded plugs in all the oil galleries and everything looks fine.

I tested lifter 5 Intake for "springiness" about it's hydraulic travel and found it locked up at the top, against the snap ring. I removed the snap ring and attempted to remove the plunger. The connecting bar rivet prevents complete removal. After reassembly the springiness returned. Whatever was hanging the lifter I somehow managed to remove. I will do the same to each lifter along with rinsing in clean mineral spirits, then immerse them in clean oil before reinstalling.

As far as the block goes I'll remove the oil drain plug and clean what I can without removing gallery plugs with brake-clean. Then I'll start out with a fresh filter and oil.

Yadkin
12-28-2015, 05:39 PM
The only thing odd here is that the pushrod lower ends are solid, where the original rods has an oiling hole. There's plenty of lubrication in this area so I don't see the need. The lifter gets oil from the block through the sides, not through the plunger from the valve train anyway.

simplyconnected
12-28-2015, 08:56 PM
...I tested lifter 5 Intake for "springiness" about it's hydraulic travel and found it locked up at the top, against the snap ring. I removed the snap ring and attempted to remove the plunger. The connecting bar rivet prevents complete removal. After reassembly the springiness returned. Whatever was hanging the lifter I somehow managed to remove. I will do the same to each lifter along with rinsing in clean mineral spirits, then immerse them in clean oil before reinstalling.

As far as the block goes I'll remove the oil drain plug and clean what I can without removing gallery plugs with brake-clean. Then I'll start out with a fresh filter and oil.If you did not see anything come out, it's still in there. You simply dislodged it. Whatever it is, entered under 50 pounds of hydraulic pressure through that oil hole in the side of the lifter. The only way to get it out is by removing the plunger, sorry. So how many lifters (total) 'went bad'? Sounds like a lot of junk.

This is bitter-sweet because you know there is an obstruction even though you cannot get to it. The same story holds true for ALL your lifters that failed. Solvents will not remedy the problem, sorry again.

Your pushrods are aftermarket because you have roller lifters that are about 1/2" taller than your OEM flat tappets. Of course your pushrods have a hole. GM cars need that hole. FE and Y-Block pushrods have no hole.

BTW, say 'Hi' to your son. Did he find your lifter problem? - Dave

Yadkin
12-28-2015, 11:00 PM
The plungers can't be removed because the rivets can't be removed. Looks like some kind of bearing in that assembly also for the link bars. So if I drilled the rivets out, which is next to an impossible job due to their hardness, I'd destroy those bearings and never get a set of them or rivets from Crane.

Now, after removing all the retainers to release the plungers and soak them in mineral spirits, all but one of them has the plungers stuck all the way against the rivet. No amount of air blastings, rattling, tapping or compression will bring them back down. Must be the check ball has wedged between something- who knows. Looks like another $600 set of lifters out the window.

In order to prevent this happening again, I'm probably just going to pull the motor, disassemble it completely, clean it and reassemble. I never even had a chance to run it with the valves working properly to even decide if I like this cam, or should I have gone with a tow vehicle cam.

So much has gone with this rebuild that I just can't believe it. What a nightmare. I've never had luck this bad in any of my other cars.

simplyconnected
12-29-2015, 04:56 AM
Steve, you have my sympathies. This should never happen to anyone. As it stands now, the lifters cannot be used. I would call the manufacturer and ask if they can be 're-linked'. I'm guessing they can if you tell them the story.

Either way, carefully grind off a rivet or two. You need to see what's in there, just so you know what is in your oil galleries. - Dave

Yadkin
12-29-2015, 12:56 PM
Not a lot of info out there with respect to manufacturer's details on link bar type lifters. One manufacturer states that they are 'not rebuildable'. Guess I should have done that research before...

New set of Lunati's on their way. :(

simplyconnected
12-29-2015, 02:01 PM
Steve, are you familiar with 'dog bone' lifters? Mustang (and other engines) have used them for many years. When given a choice I always choose the dog bone type because they do not have a link or a rivet. They simply have two flats and the dog bones keep the lifter rollers square to the cam...
http://fordperformanceracingparts.com/images/part/full/M6253A50.jpg

The lifters look like normal roller lifters with no rivets, and they slide up and down through the dog bones That sheet metal 'spider' you see bolts to the valley and it holds each dog bone down. Ford Racing sold them for over a decade. I used them in my Mustang forever:
http://fordperformanceracingparts.com/images/part/full/M-6500-R302H.jpg

Yadkin
12-29-2015, 02:27 PM
I've seen them, just not for the FE.

Yadkin
01-04-2016, 11:35 PM
The new Lunati lifters arrived last Thursday, too late to install anything because we had plans for the long weekend that didn't include wrenching. So sad...

I got right to it after work today. I cleaned off all the gasket sealer with a scotch-brite on my angle grinder and my shop vac running right at the discharge. Mopped up the old oil with lint free towels, then vacuumed the top of the block and heads. Went through again with a half can of brake clean. Then more towels, a second wash down, then mopped up the fluid, then drained the oil and removed the filter.

Lunati says do not use solvent to clean the lifters, opposite of Comp and Crane. Wipe clean with a lint free cloth, coat with 10W-30, and install. They also recommend checking clearance with the block; I don't have those expensive tools. They seem a bit tighter that the Cranes but they slide up and down easily. My bores are good- I don't expect a problem.

Here's what I found inside the filter. This is a Fram Racing filter, heavy gage, lots of flutes. The overall picture shows a short section expanded out and there are about five 1/4" long "worms", which are grey RTV gasket maker. The second picture is a close-up of one of them. Based on this sample size I'm estimating 100 or so of these worms made it into the filter.

I have a magnetic tip on the drain plug and that had about a water drop size of very fine steel dust. I'm guessing that is the break-in of the newly honed cylinders.

Keep in mind this is my second oil change. The first one I had next to nothing on the magnet so didn't bother to dissect the filter. So the worms must be my doing. I'm guessing that I was messy with the front and rear intake seals; I did have a leak after all. Maybe I didn't leave enough time for the sealer to set up.

I tried a new strategy with those two troublesome seals. The last gasket set I bought was a Felpro high performance set, and came with self-adhesive cork seals. They are cut to fit the casting very nicely. I stuck those on after the side gaskets and trimmed up the ends; I didn't like the tabs that are supposed to fit into the side gasket grooves so they got completely cut off. I used a bead of black RTV at all four intersections, smoothed them out with my fingertip then let set for an hour. Then I put a thin bead of RTV black on top of the cork and set the manifold down using my awesome wood bracket, with the help of my awesome 109 pound daughter. Then I waited exactly an hour at 70 degrees F, and torqued it down in three steps according to the factory repair manual.

I finished the evening by washing the pushrods and rocker sets with more brake clean, cleaning with towels then installing. I have the valve covers on loose with towels in the oil fill and distributor hole, all covered up and dust free. Hopefully I'll be able to get back to it tomorrow night, adjust the valves and get the big girl back whole and running sweet.

I have not dissected the old Crane lifters. Looking at the way they are assembled and knowing the hardness of the steel, I'm not looking forward to that task. After what I found in the filter I don't think that task is necessary.

simplyconnected
01-05-2016, 04:21 AM
Everyone has his way of doing things and I sincerely hope your job produces great success.

Growing up as a young teen, I was in the midst of all aspects of the car manufacturing industry. Either my neighbors worked for the big 3 or they supplied parts and tools. (Dad's company cold-headed bolts for Fisher Body.) I had a neighbor down the street who worked for Bendix but had a heart attack and died very young. The insurance left his widow and sons very well off. One of his sons was about six years my senior, bought a brand new '64 GTO. After about a year he pulled the 389 out and he dropped in a 421 Super Duty racing engine with a Turbo Hydromantic including a shift kit and a stall converter.

I learned mountains from this guy because he loved wrenching on this engine and he understood the technology. One day, I saw him using a garden hose on his block and I thought he was nuts. Turns out, that's exactly what the factory uses, dense water under high pressure in all the ports, to carry away particles left in there from the machining/grinding/honing process. They do not use compressed air. Heat from the water quickly dries the metal before noticeable rust develops. Fast forward to today where we have High Pressure Washers that are portable. Want to de-grease? Add soap.

After my blocks come home from the machine shop, even thought they are clean, I wash them again. The water costs very little and the particles are so small I cannot see them. All I care about is that they are gone before the oil pan is mounted.

Those sealant 'worms' you described are a curiosity. How did they get sucked through the pickup screen? How did they NOT get mulched in the oil pump rotors? I have to believe some pieces DID get mulched into small pieces. Hopefully they were all trapped in the filter element. If you found evidence of metal particles in the bottom of your pan, drop the pan, wash the bottom of your engine and clean the pan before re-assembly. If the 'worms' got into the oil pump, so will the particles. The difference is, steel will embed in the rotors. If the pieces are too big the pump will stop and the intermediate shaft will look like this:

Yadkin
01-05-2016, 09:35 AM
How did they get sucked through the pickup screen? How did they NOT get mulched in the oil pump rotors? I have to believe some pieces DID get mulched into small pieces. Hopefully they were all trapped in the filter element. If you found evidence of metal particles in the bottom of your pan, drop the pan, wash the bottom of your engine and clean the pan before re-assembly.

Good question. I've also noticed that my oil pressure dropped after warm-up. Time to drop the pan and pump!

YellowRose
01-05-2016, 09:48 AM
I have been following, as I am sure many others are also, your conversation with Dave regarding the problems you have run into. Your post #24 mentions pix, but I do not see any pix. I do see Dave's oversized pic and PM'd him to ask him to downsize it.:D

simplyconnected
01-05-2016, 04:09 PM
...I've also noticed that my oil pressure dropped after warm-up. Time to drop the pan and pump!
How far did it drop? What is your idle pressure and your running pressure?
Do you know your bearing clearances or was that left up to the builder?

Yadkin
01-05-2016, 04:27 PM
Kevin chose the clearances in accordance with his formula. Instructed me to use a 7 of 8 quartvoil and 15-50 or 20-50 oil. I forget the clearances that he used, but they are on the high side. Upon initial start I had a mechanical gauge installed and it showed 80 psi cold high idle then get to about 60-65 range after warm up.

After I got the interior back together and the instruments working I removed the mechanical gauge. The dash gauge was 3/4 at idle then 2/3 when warm. After this problem developed it would start at 2/3 and drop to 1/3.

Yadkin
01-05-2016, 04:32 PM
I'm going to take this opportunity to check the level in the oil pan. Filling it with 8 quarts including the filter gets it at the highest mark on my aftermarket dip stick. The engine would burn a lot of oil until it got to about 1/2 way. I've read where the correct level is 2-1/4" below the bolt flange.

simplyconnected
01-05-2016, 04:56 PM
Two questions...

Why 8 quarts in an FE engine? I can see maybe one extra quart if your engine is sustaining high speeds (Interstate highway driving) because a lot of oil will be on top of both heads if your rocker arms are not restricted.

Why break-in an engine with such high viscosity oil? Are you looking for higher concentrations of ZDDP for flat tappets?


A combination of too much heavy oil will tax your engine to overcome the sheer resistance and as a result, drastically reduce gas mileage and HP.

Modern Ford engines run hotter and they use 5W20 blended oil. So, heavier viscosity doesn't equal better lubrication. Why such drastic departures from the owner's manual? - Dave

Yadkin
01-05-2016, 07:13 PM
Back when I first approached Kevin about building this motor, the first thing he asked me after what I wanted from it was whether it had been rebuilt before. He didn't want to touch a rebuilt motor because he's had too many problems fixing other's mistakes. I assured him it was a 50 year old engine that had never been opened up.

My goal is for it to run with a little more power and torque than the factory gave it, which meant a mild "street" cam, with the stock transmission and torque converter, very dependable and run 250,000 miles. I had read Rabotnik's book on performance FE engines, and told Kevin that I was always concerned about low oil pressure for this motor, and Rabotnik had a solution for that, and I gave him the pages of the book where this was outlined. Kevin read it and agreed that this was generally a good approach, so we ordered a high volume oil pump, he chose a restrictor size and made the modifications, including streamlining the oil passages.

Kevin didn't like Rabotnik's recommendation to use the stock pan and add a 6th quart of oil, and recommended a 7 quart pan with a matched pickup. There was no 7 quart available when I ordered the part, so bought the Moroso 8 qt.

Kevin included in this build his "recipe" proven to be successful to him, and he builds a lot of motors from lightly modified like mine to full race stuff. This includes generous bearing clearances and Joe Gibbs 15W-50 oil for the life of the build, not just break in.

Yadkin
01-05-2016, 08:08 PM
Here's what the big end looks like with the gasket partially scraped off and before I remove the oil pump.

1. Front
2. Screen and behind #1
2a. Screen blow-up. That's more gasket material.
3. Behind #2. Note how clean everything is (except for the screen)
3a. Close up, showing that Kevin numbered all the connecting rods before he sent them off to Clemmons Speed shop for balancing.
4. This is all I found at the bottom of the pan. On the left is grey RTV, obviously mine. On the right is a thin shard of rubber like material. It stretches like RTV, but I used all grey. It's the only one I found so far.

Yadkin
01-05-2016, 08:59 PM
Here's the oil pump.

5. Rotor and star (not sure what it's called)
6. Housing
7. Cover
8. Star
9. These were on the screen. More grey RTV and some small pieces of paper gasket.

Bottom line, no metal in the entire assembly, just some gasket material from my previous assembly, which I should have been more careful and clean.

simplyconnected
01-05-2016, 09:15 PM
Don't beat yourself up over it. At least you know what is in your engine; something you can deal with. If these pieces got past your oil filter there is a good chance they will plug small oil holes, and there are many.
Each rocker arm has two (to lube the tip and pushrod), each connecting rod has one (to squirt oil from the rod bearing to the bottom of the piston) and each lifter has one (to pump up the plunger).

At this stage in the game I would pull bearing caps, remove the crank & cam and use water pressure to wash out the galleries and rocker shafts. THEN, install those $700 lifters. - Dave

Yadkin
01-06-2016, 12:04 AM
I'm not pulling the motor and undoing all Kevin's work. The pictures prove that he did a great job, took a lot of care and pride assembling this engine, even paint-indicated all the bolts as he torqued them. Far better than I could do in my garage that doubles as a wood shop, garden tool storage, and a hospice space for my dying cat. Kevin's got a clean room with stainless steel wash sinks and plenty of clean bench space.

There are no indications that any pieces of sealer got past the filter. All that I found was either in the filter, a few on the screen and two or three on the bottom of the oil pan.

If this crap was clogging up tiny oiling holes, soft bearing material would wear very quickly and there would be indications of that on the bottom of the pan. I know what that looks like because I've seen it before on an engine that went without oil. I'd also expect to see a lot more iron than I found on the magnet, which was basically the amount of an exposed lead on a pencil, easily attributed to break-in.

I'd also expect to see stuff not getting lubricated on the valve train when I prime with my open top valve covers. Instead I see consistent oiling at all 16 rockers.

These lifters were ruined by the Joker that I hired to help me last time. He's since been fired by the way, not for this but for other crap that he's screwed up. And he's no longer working as a mechanic.

Yadkin
01-07-2016, 12:11 AM
I got the pan back on, the engine set back down in its mounts, assembled the top end and adjusted the valves. I can see where Joker went wrong, there tends to be a bit of "stiction" on new lifters, in a box for weeks or months or longer, and when the adjusters are turned all the way out it's tricky to see when the valves are operating. No need to prime while doing this, which was Kevin's recommendation.

Three ways to make a mistake. I found all three, apparently. Let the phone ring, ignore the outside world, focus, pay attention to what's happening and if you can't internally explain it, figure out why.

Find zero lash carefully, look for the lifter compressing with 1/2 turn, not the valve. Any questions turn all the way down to work the preload spring and be patient to wait for the plunger to return. These Lunati's have a long preload travel (3 turns or 0.15", twice what the Cranes had. The manufacturer specifies a light preload, per my calculations 3/8 to 1/2 turn.

Then double check with the preload springs compressed, making sure you didn't screw up the first time.

Finally, torque the lock nuts to the adjuster manufacturer's settings instead of using "mechanics feel".

After I got everything set, valve covers on, poured in 8 qt's of new oil and primed it. Then I found 10 degrees BTDC on the #1 cylinder and dropped the distributor in. Incredibly it dropped all the way in- first time that ever happened for me, I must be livin' right.

I have to get back to my real job tomorrow, a long trip to Fayetteville. That will give the black RTV plenty of time to set if by chance I get back to it on Friday. More than likely will be next Tuesday or Wednesday.

Wudro
01-07-2016, 07:12 AM
Fingers crossed for you! Can't wait to hear the outcome....

Yadkin
01-07-2016, 10:22 PM
Thanks. Mine crossed as well.

I got home at a reasonable time so spent an hour or two installing the spark plug wires, fixed one that was broken, installed a connector on the distributor module wires, primed the pump, put my tools away and swept the garage. I didn't want to start it up tonight because my neighbor works early shift and needs his sleep.

Yadkin
01-08-2016, 07:20 PM
Great day! Started her up, nice and quiet valve train, oil pressure at cold about 2/3 of the gauge, which I interpret as 80 psi. Warm it up, the electric fan and control keeps the coolant art around 185 +/-5 degrees F. Oil pressure drops to about 1/2 of cold. I set a new tune and adjusted the throttle plates and went for a 10 mile drive to burn off the oil spilled on the exhaust ports and headers.

Came home, had lunch, drove to Mocksville, took I40 two exits and experienced a lot of vibration above 70 mph. This seems to be from the driveshaft but I had that balanced. Good acceleration though, from 55 to 75 takes no time at all. I got off on the local two-lane and the car runs much better at 55 to 60. Oil pressure high, like at cold idle.

Very docile around town, good idle quality. I picked up my mail then went to the bank drive-through, kept the engine idling the whole time and no problem talking with the teller. She's got a '57 Chevy at home!

Drove it back into the garage and parked it. No stink! All I can smell is a fresh coat of paint curing on the intake manifold.

Randy
01-12-2016, 12:36 AM
good job keeping us inform we learn pic up stuff that I don't want
happening to me, if I can help it ,

simplyconnected
01-12-2016, 12:51 AM
I appreciate Steve's honesty. It's easy to tell folks on the world wide web about your successes but it's a hard pill to swallow when things go bad and the damage report includes hundreds or thousands of dollars lost.

So, kudos to Steve for his honest reports and the pictures he posts. We all learn more from failures so we can steer clear of them.

I hope Steve has seen the last of any troubles with his build. - Dave

Yadkin
01-12-2016, 01:57 PM
This has been a difficult project for me due to the expense, but more so because of the unreliability of some local folks that I relied on. In that group I'll include COMP as they had a known issue with a parts supplier. Kevin's lengthy process to rebuild the motor meant that the warranty period was behind me when the problem revealed itself. In no sense whatsoever will I include Kevin in this group, as he had been upfront with me about his schedule and his work has proven to be first-rate. In retrospect I should have had him assemble the top end but I was impatient.

Next was my impatience to get the issue fixed and meet a deadline of when my Dad was passing through. He's 85 and not going to be making the trip forever- I really wanted the chance to take him for a ride in the car and his enthusiasm when I was able to do so was obvious. And this is my dad, one of the "old school" guys that doesn't show a lot of emotion. He was thrilled. In order to meet that deadline I had to next-day deliver expensive parts, then hire someone to put them in who basically lied about his expertise.

Am I upset about install #2 that turned out to be a failure? How can I be- as I made my dad happy, and he doesn't need to know about the problems I had with it later.

This isn't the first time in my life or even professional career that I've made mistakes. Any professional that tell you he's never made a mistake is either a liar or has never worked on a complicated project. As I tell my clients, I've made mistakes in the past and expect to make more of them in the future. The key is to learn from them, deal with any issues that you have caused and don't repeat them.

What I've learned here is similar to what I've learned professionally. Take your time. Take advice with a grain of salt. Pay attention to the machine. Rely on tactile feedback and common sense. Be patient. Double-check your work.

Yadkin
05-04-2016, 04:36 PM
Well, it looks like it happened yet again. After working out my ignition problems, running the car trouble-free down the road, slow acceleration to 88 mph, slow deceleration and an extended run at 50 mph, then slow acceleration up to 94 mph and a slow deceleration, I pulled off the highway and noticed what sounded like noisy lifters. I drove the last three miles home and let the engine cool, started it up a few days later. Yup, noisy lifters again.

All but three lifters had collapsed either completely or totally. #1 I&E, I can get about 3/4 turn compressing the internal spring. I put in fresh oil, tried priming the lifters through the distributor, and no change on any of the lifters.

I'm signed up for a car show on Saturday so really want to get this fixed. I set all the valves to 3/8 turn from the bottom, started the engine and the noise was worse than before. So I tightened all up 1/8 turn, the noise was a little better, test drove for about 5 miles and couldn't stand the sound of it.

I'm thinking to tighten all another 1/8 turn, and if that doesn't work set all to the bottom of the internal spring travel. Can I drive 100 miles like that without major damage?

If I have to do that I'm going to pull the motor out and install a new RV cam and all new lifters. I'll probably go regular flat tappet. I'm getting that sick of this.

simplyconnected
05-04-2016, 07:36 PM
I'm not pulling the motor and undoing all Kevin's work...
...These lifters were ruined by the Joker that I hired to help me last time. He's since been fired by the way, not for this but for other crap that he's screwed up. And he's no longer working as a mechanic.Well, it looks like it happened yet again...
I pulled off the highway and noticed what sounded like noisy lifters...

...Can I drive 100 miles like that without major damage?

If I have to do that I'm going to pull the motor out and install a new RV cam and all new lifters. I'll probably go regular flat tappet. I'm getting that sick of this.

No.
Steve, hydraulic lifters work exactly the same, roller or flat. It simply makes no difference.

You have gone through four sets of very expensive lifters. You know my suggestions. They are the same today as they were months ago.

History has proved, if you change lifters again, they will probably fail. Wise up and get to the root cause instead of continuing this lunacy. Evidently, the "joker" that helped you last time is not the cause of four sets of failed lifters.

If you want to find the true cause of your lifter problems follow my prior posts. You are an engineer so you know there is nothing mystical about simple mechanics because the evidence always speaks for itself. - Dave

Yadkin
05-04-2016, 10:28 PM
I removed and cleaned the oil pan, pressurized the oil system and found good pressure to the lifter galleries. I even checked the height of the gallery holes with the necked down of the lifters, found them compatible. Not sure what good disassembling the short block would do.

simplyconnected
05-05-2016, 03:22 AM
Steve, the quoted post is #15 from Christmas Eve. Please read it a few times.

I don't meant to be critical or judgmental but rather to help you. I believe if you had followed these steps your problems would have been identified and gone back then.

Pointing fingers of blame helps nobody and it doesn't fix your situation. That is NOT my intent.

Your engine gave good service for many years until it got old and tired. The only major change that happened between then and now is the overhaul. I don't know who did it and I don't want to know. The evidence proves it wasn't done properly. Before you put your engine back into service it must be done properly. If you don't, the consequences will certainly repeat themselves again.

In previous posts, I hoped that you would grind off the 'link rivet' on one of the bad lifters so you could actually see what is causing your problems. I believe the culprit is not dirt. To be more specific, I will shoot from the hip and predict machine shop debris is in your oil galleries. There is only one sure way to know and that is to disassemble a few of your bad lifters and look.

If you send a couple bad lifters to me I will look for you and share pictures of my findings:
Dave Dare
2112 N. Vermont Ave.
Royal Oak, MI 48073-4204

Steve, this is Christmas Eve and I have nothing but love in my heart for you and empathy for your situation. Merry Christmas, my friend.

I'm not totally good with the way engines are oiled but these are the facts... Oil, and everything in it, goes through your pump rotors first then it splits two ways. Either it continues to the filter or it gets dumped back to the oil pan from the pressure relief valve. If oil goes to your filter 'junk' may get trapped in the element or the internal bypass valve will open. All oil from the filter goes to your oil galleries for distribution.

When an overhaul is performed it is absolutely imperative that all plugs be removed in the block and all ports are reamed (usually with a long brush in solvent). This should dislodge dirt in the nooks and crannies. High pressure wash is next, in both directions of each port.
Let's stop right here. I've seen various degrees of the above 'cleanliness'. The factory cannot afford failures because they need to ship 1,000 good engines per day. Huge money is spent on machines that perform the washing process after all machining is done.

Since 'time is money' little shops normally don't chase all the threads and they may miss a plug or two. Sometimes this is due to having many people work on an engine. Quite frankly, this is the reason I take lots of pictures during the process. I instruct the machine shop to only install cam bearings after they wash. I check cam bearing orientation then I use high pressure in all the galleries before I install all the plugs. If anything is left in a gallery it may eventually affect the working components (like roller lifters).

A small nick in the crank from a connecting rod bolt thread will peel Babbitt bearing material off in a circle. It's made of tin, copper and antimony. With any luck the bearing will still work but where does the debris go?

Many mechanics will only buy 'factory' short blocks, then build from there. This is where crate engines shine because they were made on the same assembly line with production engines. The equipment is state of the art and the assemblers make 1,000 good engines per day every day.

Bottom line: Mechanical parts always leave witnesses behind. I let them speak for themselves. One of our members had a cam bolt back out. It sent aluminum pieces from the timing cover into the oil pan but the engine kept running until the fuel pump eccentric fell off. Someone forgot the Loctite. - Dave

Yadkin
05-05-2016, 10:55 AM
I understand Dave, no worries.

I do, however, need you to understand that I have immense faith in Kevin Bush and his shop. Remember that both Kevin and I read Barry Rabotkink's chapter on oil modifications for the FE, then chose a high volume pump and restrictors to the heads. Kevin also streamlined the oil galleries, threaded the block for screw-in plugs, and I assure you thoroughly cleaned the galleries again, before installing the plugs.

I just talked with my friend Mike Boger at Classic Metal (he's working on my 74 Fiat Spider right now). He had an FE motor in a Mustang years ago and had oiling problems; he had a 9 qt pan with a high volume oil pump, and it would still run the bottom end out of oil at high RPMs. He eventually had to install a dry sump kit.

Although I restricted the oil flow to the heads on this build, Mike thinks that I may have run the bottom end out of oil when I did my slow roll up to 94 mph, then back down to 70, the other night. That equates to about 3500 rpm. When I got off the highway a few minutes later I heard the engine making bottom end noises that I had not heard with this motor before, but the engine quited down a lot after just a few seconds, but not completely, to lifter tapping noises.

I just cut the cover off the Wix filter that was on the engine and am bringing to over to Kevin and talk this over with him.

simplyconnected
05-05-2016, 02:30 PM
Steve, you keep bringing personalities, reputations and 'faith' into this mechanical problem. At the same time you refuse to look inside the failed lifters. I don't understand. Are you afraid of what you might find?

You have a lifter problem, so you cut into the oil filter. Isn't it obvious, if debris were caught in the filter it could not get into your lifters? We already discussed, the oil pan, pump and filter come before the oil galleries. Oil modifications were done downstream of the filter.

This will conclude my comments regarding your lifter problems as my suggestions are well documented. Mechanical problems are completely void of reasoning and they cannot be negotiated with. Lifters have no reputations to uphold or toes to step on. They are self evident. All the 'talk' in this world is not going to discover hard evidence or solve your problem.

You have installed different brands of precision lifters that cost thousands of dollars and they all failed the same way. Every one of those lifters were designed to last under rigorous racing conditions for decades, not 30 days.

Instead of investigating the cause, your remedy has been to install more new lifters and every time, the results produce more failed lifters. From an engineering standpoint, if your solutions produce the same failures, logic tells us not to repeat them. - Dave

Yadkin
05-05-2016, 09:09 PM
Relying on reputations as part of the investigation process is used in every field.

The filter paper was clean, no debris at all.

Regarding the theory that debris was left in the oil galleries, I discussed this with Kevin, and he just shook his head. "If that were the case, it would have been flushed down stream with the previous set of lifters." I had been thinking the same thing.

Kevin doesn't have a theory that he's comfortable with either. He notes that a lot of manufacturer's don't make their own stuff anymore, especially the low volume stuff. He thinks that there is really only two factories making them. After seeing what happened with me, he's lost confidence in both of them.

He suggests calling Lunati with a warranty claim, then asking if I can drill out one rivet to investigate further.

He also mentioned that I could go with a solid roller on the same cam. Just verify the application with whatever manufacturer I go with. Expect a "sewing machine" sound under the hood.

Yadkin
05-05-2016, 09:12 PM
Regarding Mike's theory of draining the bottom end, Kevin indicated that there wasn't that much room on the top end to contain the 8 quarts in the pan.

Yadkin
05-05-2016, 09:21 PM
The warranty was only good for 90 days. I bought these late December, 2015. :(

Randy
05-06-2016, 03:13 PM
Yadkin sorry to read yet another set of lifter went south .
I'm very curious as to why, what's in there to make them stop working , only because i'm going to rebuild one soon and think it would benefit myself to know? whats going on in the lifters?
if you don't mind I will pay for shipping a bad set to Dave let him take them apart, what do you got to lose, it could be Manufacture Defect. it could happen !

Yadkin
05-07-2016, 12:07 PM
Thanks Randy that's not a bad idea. I got a lot of local heads scratching on this as well. I'll also send a pair to Kevin, Mike, and dissect one myself.

I just ordered a set of Howards 91261. Mike recommended this manufacturer. According to their site: "designed primarily for ease of maintenance and reliability". They are made in some strange place called "you sah". Summit has them on back order, shipped directly from the manufacturer. Who knows when I'll get them.

I also re-read Rabotnik's chapter on oiling modifications. He recommends a Melling M57HV high volume pump (about 20-25% more oil flow) to increase pressure on the bottom end. Also an ARP pump drive shaft. This is exactly what I have. When using an aftermarket rocker set, they need a lot less oil, so to keep from flooding the top end use 0.060" orifice restrictors, either at the block deck or the rocker mount pedestal. Kevin recommended that I use 0.075" restrictors at the pedestal mounts, which is what I did.

I borrowed the picture below to show the location of the head restrictors. That is a screw-in type. Mine are drop in; they can't go further into the hole because the passage turns, and they can't come out because the pedestal stud.

The last time I removed the rocker set I didn't check that the restrictors were in place; it just never occurred to me. They can't go anywhere. If so, I should have noticed. I'm going to remove the rocker set again and check. My thinking on this: This last lifter set collapsed after a 3500 RPM run. Maybe I starved them of oil?

When priming, I find a lot of oil coming up to the heads. I probably need to use the smaller restrictors, 0.060.

stubbie
05-08-2016, 09:20 PM
Steve because I know nothing about rebuilding engines and you need answers to your lifter problems I decided to post your problem on the FE Forum to see if I could find you some answers, other opinions or corroborating evidence (hope you don't mind). Would you be able to tell us your step by step preload process for your lifters?

Yadkin
05-09-2016, 09:59 AM
OK by me.

Each manufacturer has different instructions for installation.

Lunati: Do NOT wash in solvent, wipe the parts off, and coat the outside with oil.
Crane: Clean with mineral spirits and coat lightly with oil.
Comp: Soak for 30 minutes in mineral spirits, then coat the outside with oil.


For pre-load adjustment, I find base circle of the cam at cylinder #1 by turning the crankshaft by hand (normal rotation). When the exhaust valve begins to open, the intake is at base circle. Wiggle the pushrod up-down while slowly tightening the adjuster. When the pushrod clearance is gone, that is zero lash. Tighten 1/2 turn more while watching that the rocker arm does not move. At this point I usually turn more to find total travel available, then loosen, then reset to 1/2 turn past zero lash. Then tighten the lock nut.

Then I repeat the process in firing order 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8.

Next I adjust the exhaust valves. When the intake valve begins to close, the exhaust is at base circle. Set preload the same as the intake.

Valve locations on the FE:

Yadkin
05-09-2016, 10:13 AM
Kevin Bush recommends finding zero lash while priming the oil pump. To do this, however, requires having open-top valve covers in order to avoid oil spilling all over the sides of the motor. Then you have to have a buddy working an electic drill down the distributor drive shaft.

I cut the top off an old valve cover and did this technique, and still created a huge mess. Not to mention the inconvenience of the method.

The last set of Lunatis that I installed I didn't use that technique at all. Instead I found zero lash with the lifters out of the box, wiped clean and lightly lubricated. I found a substantial amount of static friction (stiction) in the new lifters, and I worked that out by finding zero lash, tightening down lightly to the bottom of the plunger travel, loosening completely, and finding zero a second or third time.

Yadkin
05-09-2016, 10:24 AM
Re-reading the Comp instructions, they have a paragraph on lifter failure by "particles in the oil becoming jammed between the plunger and lifter body", a common issue in newly rebuilt engines. Clearances are "typically 0.00012" (3 microns)". "Replacing the affected lifter is usually the easiest fix, as any particles should have been captured by the filter (or other lifters) after the initial running."

Kevin recommended I use a Fram Racing filter. After the first failure I cut that filter open, finding no debris. But it is a beefy construction for the high oil pressure. I replaced it with a standard Wix because it's just as well constructed and available over the counter.

I haven't been able to find much on micron ratings of various filters. I just ordered a new Wix Racing filter, but I'm not certain that I will use it.

Yadkin
05-09-2016, 01:28 PM
Oil filter efficiencies are not easy to find on the interwebs. From what I could find, Wix 51515 has a nominal micron size of 21, with beta ratios of 2/20=6/20. That means that 1 - 1/2 or 50%, of particles 6 microns will be captured, 1 - 1/20, or 95%, of particle sizes 20 microns will be captured. Comparing to other filters, this looks very good.

The Wix 51515R has a nominal micron rating of 61. I can't find a beta ratio. I'm guessing that it doesn't filter small particles as well in a street engine as the regular 51515. I'm sending it back.

Yadkin
05-10-2016, 09:45 AM
After talking to Howard's tech department, I decided to go with the Howards 91169. They are in stock and appear to be more for street use. They'll arrive on Wednesday evening. On Thursday I'll get the car hauled to the shop in Mocksville then disassemble the top of the engine to change out the lifters. Mike's engine guy will be there and help me diagnose what's going on.

Yadkin
05-10-2016, 10:35 AM
Steve at Howards called me back. I had asked him about the 15W-50 oil that I was told to use. They want to see 10W-40, maximum viscosity.

stubbie
05-10-2016, 07:51 PM
Steve were you using the 15W-50 oil to start with or something else?

Yadkin
05-10-2016, 11:09 PM
I went with Kevin's recommendation to use Joe Gibbs BR1, which is a 15W-50 break in oil from the start. After a few hundred miles I switched to Joe Gibbs HR1, also a 15W-50 oil.

I spent quite a bit of time today reading up on oil viscosity. Bobistheoilguy has a "viscosity 101" through 201 and this explains viscosity vs. oil flow rate in generic terms. All xW-50 oils will have the same viscosity at operating temperature. My oil pump is going to flow oil at a rate increasing (approximately) linear with RPM until the pressure exceeds the bypass valve setting. After that point it will flow at a constant rate.

My engine oil should operate at about 210 degrees F. A race motor putting out max power will operate substantially higher, around 300 degrees, thus requiring a higher viscosity number to survive.

Melling doesn't advertise what the pump bypass pressure is, but I have had a mechanical gauge on this engine for initial startup and found this to be 80psi. Using a 50 weight oil, 80psi pressure will be exceeded at relatively low RPM.

Bob has some interesting charts in this article here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-109/

Bob's charts for 30 and 40 weight oil and a high volume pump suggests that 80 psi is reached with a 50 weight oil at less than 1500 RPM. After that, there will be no increase in flow. Oil flow rate is what lubricates plain bearings, so the bearings aren't being lubricated any better at 5500 RPM than at 1500 RPM.

From this I could take a (poorly) educated guess, that a 30 weight oil or possibly lower is going to maximize oil flow volume for my street motor that at 3500 RPM and will rarely see higher engine speeds.

Bob recommends experimenting with lower viscosity oils step-wise. For my application, that means switching from 50 to 40 weight.

Based on this I don't see a problem at all going to a conventional 10W-40 oil, approved by Howards for their lifters, and using a mechanical gauge to verify oil pressures and then possibly going a step further to 30 weight.

simplyconnected
05-11-2016, 12:26 AM
'Pressure is resistance to flow.' <--carve this in stone. In a system that is missing an oil plug, there is no resistance so there is no pressure because oil simply dumps back to the pan as fast as the pump rotors can turn.

Inside your pump is a 'Pressure Relief Valve'. This is very important. If the pressure relief valve is stuck shut, pressure will be allowed to keep raising and your oil filter will burst. Don't ask me how I know.

Oil filters also have a bypass valve that works apart from the pump's pressure relief valve. When your oil is cold and viscous, resistance to flow is high, meaning pressure must also be high. The oil filter cannot possibly filter much high viscosity fluid so the bypass valve opens to allow flow.

15W-40(or 50) is something I would use in my air-cooled Harley-Davidson engine, not in a car engine. So, what does Ford use for break-in oil? Every Mustang I've ever seen went out the door with 10W-30, including Cobra-R engines (351W with roller lifters). They also use Motorcraft FL-1A filters. They were covered by a factory drivetrain warranty for at least 12,000 miles or more (some years were 50,000).

My wife's Ford Escape uses Motorcraft 5W-20 blended semi-syn. Again, less viscous and less resistance to flow so the efficiency produces better gas mileage and the filter rarely bypasses.

Do not confuse flow with pressure. The pressure relief valve spring is set at a specific pressure. As your oil warms it gets thinner. Engine oil flow increases as resistance decreases at the same pressure, because the oil is LESS viscous.

So more viscosity is not better. In fact it renders your filter useless, sending whatever it picks up from the pan into your galleries. When you open a lifter you will see. - Dave

stubbie
05-11-2016, 12:51 AM
Steve from the few replies that I've had on the other forum it seems you may be crushing the lifter as you go past the 1/2 turn or crud in the lifter. You will need to pull some lifters apart to see what is going on exactly. If you pull some apart can you post some pics thanks.
Cheers

Yadkin
05-11-2016, 12:50 PM
Inside your pump is a 'Pressure Relief Valve'. ...

So more viscosity is not better. In fact it renders your filter useless, sending whatever it picks up from the pan into your galleries. When you open a lifter you will see. - Dave

Yes, as I mentioned the relief valve in my HV pump must be set at 80 psi or slightly less, because that's what my mechanical gauge read when I had it installed for the initial startup of this engine, a year or so ago. When the pressure relief valve opens, it flows excess oil back into the pan.

That is different that a filter bypass, which is internal to the filter. That is in the range of 10 psi, so that if the filter media gets completely clogged, the engine will still get pressurized oil, albeit unfiltered. I'm confident that never happened, based on my inspection of the filter media after three separate oil changes.

Yadkin
05-11-2016, 01:20 PM
Steve from the few replies that I've had on the other forum it seems you may be crushing the lifter as you go past the 1/2 turn or crud in the lifter. You will need to pull some lifters apart to see what is going on exactly. If you pull some apart can you post some pics thanks.
Cheers

I can see how bottoming out the plunger and running the engine would crush the internal components, because this would cause dynamic loads over thousands of cycles.

What I don't see is how I could crush the lifter during adjustment by working the plunger through its full movement one, two or three times to make sure that I'm at the top of it's travel for zero lash. Also, setting the intake valve correctly on cylinder 1 for example, followed by hand rotation of the crank and adjustment of the remaining valves, will cause the intake valve on cylinder 1 to cycle through its full movement at least twice, exerting full valve spring pressure on the lifter, hence bottoming it out with about 300# of force. If this does "crush the lifter", then how is it possible to adjust the remaining valves? Also, how do the lifters not "get crushed" when the engine sits for any length of time, with partial or full valve spring pressure on about 1/4 of the lifters? Someone please clue me in. :confused:

I note that out of the 13 of 16 lifters that have collapsed completely (or nearly so), the #1 intake and exhaust are the LEAST collapsed, having retained 3/4 turn of plunger travel.

Yadkin
05-11-2016, 01:21 PM
The new lifters will arrive here this afternoon. I'm taking tomorrow off to install them. I might set up my dash camera, and stick it on the underside of the hood, and record the adjustment procedure. If so I'll post it on Youtube for y'all to critique. I'm warning you ahead of time, you'll likely see a lot of the back of my bald head. :eek:

I'll number the old lifter sets and ship individual pairs unopened to anyone who is interested. I'll open one myself. I'll give at least one pair to Kevin, and another to Mike. I'll send one pair to Lunati if they are interested.

Yadkin
05-13-2016, 05:39 PM
Too busy at work to do this now.

One theory from a guy here is that the lifters can't "bleed out" because the pushrods are non-oiling. Does that have any merit?

simplyconnected
05-13-2016, 05:42 PM
No, FE pushrods never used a center hole for oiling. Besides, I thought your problem was that the lifters collapsed.
I thought you were taking the day off work?..

pbf777
05-13-2016, 09:26 PM
It is of my opinion (for what ever that's worth?), that you follow the oil recommendations that were given by your engine builder and ignore someone in a so called "tech" department, who has no business doing such, and is probably only attempting to redirect any fault in your lifter failures.

You indicated that your beliefs were that the oil clearances are on the generous side, and I would find this to be consistent with the practice from a capable engine builder (with insight on the subject), and also with the general requirements of the FE engine, for a number of reasons. It is this, that dictates the viscosity/weight value that is appropriate first and foremost, with considerations of the intended environment (who, where & how in the world is driving it).

We use these oils (J.G.) and find them to be fine products (no I won't get a check), and can assure you that your lifter failures were not do to this viscosity. This oil will pass the (properly executed) lifter valving and in the FE it dead ends here, with exception of that which "leaks" past the clearance between the plunger and the body/shell. It is necessary for oil pressure to build in the lifter gallery & between the lifter's O.D. and the block's lifter bore in order for the oil to force/flow into the lifter reservoir below the plunger. Therefore, it is good practice to establish what the clearances or wear values are in the block bores. If the oil viscosity (reasonable) were to high then one would assume the only drawback would be: for those valves in the open position @ shut down, oil has been forced out & plunger is down the bore due to spring pressure applied, recover at start-up might be sightly slower; and in a valve float scenario were the plunger may move up the shell's bore attempting to hold the valve open even when it (lifter) is on the heal of the cam lobe (the effect the driver realizes) the leakage about the plunger to bore relationship may be retarded some thereby extending the time of recovery to nominal (sightly).

As of your adjustment process; I always say, "if it works for you, keep at it", but, allow me to suggest a process that I prefer. First, wash lifters in clean solvent, one to clean them, and remove any oil from the reservoir so that the plunger moves freely (soaking maybe necessary to thin oil trapped inside lifter), apply light oil (WD-40) to inhibit corrosion (do not submerge).

At time of installation lubricate block lifter bore w/ oil, w/ roller lifters, dip body in oil ensuring roller bearing is saturated but not filling lifter's internals; w/flat tappets apply high pressure lube/grease to faces only; slip into bores (if binding exists stop look).

All of the other valve train components (rockers/shafts, push rod/manifold, adj. screws & nuts) must function freely/smoothly, if not, fix it.

The value of the hyd. lifter is that using pressure to supply oil and inability of the mechanics to compress the oil captured, the plunger floats in the lifter body and self positions it's self, creating a zero lash effect even as parts wear (also allows sloppier tolerances in the engineering & production). We normally position the plunger closer to the top verses the bottom for a number of reasons. Therefore,we measure from the top down verses from the bottom up.

Assuming you have a lifter w/ the typical performance aftermarket lifter plunger travel distance of approx. .080" +/- (you should know as in the cleaning process you established freedom of movement in the plungers; note their are others), generally, the established value of .020" - .040" lifter plunger preload (distance the plunger is compressed from the retainer) is accepted. Always inquire with the manufacture if in doubt.

When adjusting, establish (rotating adjusting fixture) the point where the clearance in the valve train is removed but, without preloading the plunger, then turn the adjusting fastener that which equites the desired preload. With the plunger free to move this requires feel & light touch, but is best way to know where your at in reference to zero. If you start with the lifters "pump-up", as you rotate the engine you force the oil out of the lifters and you end up with varying feel/technique as you proceed and don't know where the plunger is in it's bore height wise.

Your concerns over damaging lifters, rotating engine by hand (or bump starter) and allowing plungers to "bottom-out" is unfounded (unless some real cheap China sh't).

When complete pour oil over all valve train components slap-on valve covers. Always prime engine before starting. I also prefer to rotate engine w/ starter (spark plugs removed & battery charger attached) to establish oil pressure, install plugs & start.

BTW is this a 390 or 410, or? In the photo of your engine, I noticed that the block has the additional main webs & also the unmachined bosses for the cross-bolt caps which we most often encountered with the Mercury 410 cu.in. engines of I believe 1964 +/- vintage. Scott.

simplyconnected
05-14-2016, 05:46 AM
Proper oiling is a major concern for any manufacturer who includes a long engine warranty. We can do a lot of double talk or we can 'feel as if' about a build but the big boys in Detroit spend millions (yes, many millions) on Engine Engineering. Follow your manufacturer's lead and their suggestions.

You mentioned oil viscosity and how it affects flow and pressure. This science is very easy to prove. Your article avers that cars 'up north' suffer in cold weather. The oil gets so thick that viscosity and flow cannot be measured for the first two or three minutes of run time. They suggest, if the engine is not under load, wear is minimized until the temps reach over 100F. That is the reason for using 10W-30 (or 5W-20), even on new engines.

Oil filters cannot possibly work during this time. In fact they bypass nearly ALL the oil until the viscosity thins out:
CLICK HERE (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=309756)for BOBISTHEOILGUY's post regarding filtration bypass.

According to this information, it is no wonder your oil filter was clean when opened. BTW, I agree with his findings. Too much viscosity starves engine components when they are cold. - Dave

pbf777
05-14-2016, 11:28 AM
The subject of proper oil viscosity & oil flow values within an engine can be a complicated & long drawn-out discussion, and rightfully with no singular conclusion. The number of variables involving the "who, what & where in the world" are to vast for this forum compile (or any other that I have read).

If you have confidence in your engine builder (hopefully), allow their experience & wisdom on the matter guide you. This is some of what you pay for from the professional (vs. some neighbor/buddy/guy who knows about cars & works out of his garage at home, nites & weekends - CHEAP!). Your engine (FE) is no longer as it left Ford 30-40+ yrs ago; nor are the lubricating oils what Ford was familiar with at that time.

Oil filter by-pass somes (never "all") & instances alone is complicated and involves many considerations, again to vast for this forum to draw any steadfast singular conclusion. I will inject that with testing on our part, I would recommend for a typical screw-on unit w/ O.E.M. mountings, using the Ford FL1 filters for standard vehicle operation, and the Ford FL1HP for the more spirited operations (where applicable). Scott.

And yes obviously, oil does not flow as readily when colder, and there are many ramifications within the engine to this, not just oil filter by-pass concerns. So, don't raise hell until the engine is up to "normal- operating-temperature", as maybe your father or grandfather told before.

Yadkin
05-17-2016, 11:30 AM
No, FE pushrods never used a center hole for oiling. Besides, I thought your problem was that the lifters collapsed.
I thought you were taking the day off work?..My two biggest clients have me buried under structural engineering work, so less time for my hobby, and it has become much more difficult to take a day off during the week.

I attempted this last lifter install using 5W-30. The Howards are identical to the Lunatis. Except they failed to pump up from the beginning.

Yadkin
05-17-2016, 11:36 AM
Last night I disassembled everything on the motor and the car is getting towed to Mike's tonight or tomorrow morning, then they'll pull the engine out. His engine builder, David, is going to tear it down and inspect everything. Once he gets to that point we'll have a conversation and decide how to go.

One change I want to make is to put an "RV" type cam in this motor. Roller hydraulic, but I'm going with smoothest idle and low end torque available. Even when everything was running perfect I wasn't satisfied with the idle quality. And I want best fuel economy.

I read through Bobs The Oil Guy. What Dave said about filter bypass is also a concern. I also want to use 5W-30 from the beginning.

I've been monitoring oil pressure and temperature on my Jeep for the past few days, a 3.6L Pentastar engine, noting temperature takes quite a while to get to it's plateau of 180F, about 20F lower than coolant temperature. This engine also has a 2 stage oil pressure system, applying 80 psi at start up and lowering to 40psi when warmed up. It will increase pressure with RPMs and apply the second stage at high RPMs, basically maintaining about 20psi per 1000 RPM.

This is why I like Rabotnik's recommendation for a HV oil pump. I think the old rule-of-thumb 10psi per 1000 RPM is out-of-date. Back in 1964 an engine was expected to last 100k miles; today 300k is more common. The increased oil pressure is why. That, and cleaner fuels, roller parts.

pbf777
05-17-2016, 09:12 PM
I suppose the purpose for your posts in this forum maybe to receive some input from others concerning your foray in this matter? Well, you left the door open; good or bad here's a thought.

Please understand that in automotive engine applications we generally concern ourselves first, with the oil viscosity requirements that are necessary for engine survivability when under-load (even maximum-load) and normal-operating-temperature (w/ considerations for excessive oil temperature - simultaneously), where it generally spends most of it's time. One doesn't ignore cold-start-up concerns, and yes, compromises especially in the northern regions during winter, are made, but keep in mind, typically most premature engine damage/failures take place with the engine in use under-load, often due to excessive load & heat. Notice that with the Coyote 5.0 in the mustangs today, Ford recommends a 5w-50 viscosity oil. The best compromise we can make is to reduce the load & operating R.P.Ms until some heat is generated in the oil. This is good practice in your old FE engine and you more modern units also.

Your often smaller modern engines are engineered with reduced oil clearances thru out, for a number of reasons (including E.P.A), therefore require thinner oils for proper lubrication. One of the biggest problems when the oil is cold, is their complicated (compared to the FE anyway) overhead cam valve train, which with tight clearances (didn't want the oil losses like the FE) and small and sometimes complicated routeings, (lets not forget some also have hydraulic valve timing functions), no camshaft bearings (cam runs in head, maybe not ideal bearing material?), those are probably the biggest concerns and reasons for the oil pressure step-up in your example.

Many engine builders will recommend (speaking solely of viscosity) a "lighter" oil for break-in; but this circumstance is intended as "break-in", low load, no over-heat, controled R.P.M.s, right?

I have already commented on my preference of filters and some of their attributes concerning bypassing function are mentioned elsewhere, and the H.V. oil pump is necessary with generous clearances, and I stated that understanding bypass values can be complicated, but also understand that the filter has less oil to contend with when the oil is cold if only (and it's not) due to the pumps inefficiency with the correspondingly cold oil.

The 10 p.s.i. per 1000 rpm formula works fine with this type of engine in this format, as with the greater size of the parts & oil clearances, the oil flow is achieved without the required higher pressure & due to the tighter clearances of you modern example. Note that if your oil delivery system is more efficient you can/will lower the pressure required; capitalizing on this, increasing efficiency & function on a number of fronts and make more power. Many racing engines operate in the range of approx. 5 p.s.i. per 1000 r.p.m..

And, lifters (old american V8 style) function better with higher viscosity (reasonable) oil as it is not displaced as easily. Scott.

Yadkin
05-18-2016, 08:51 AM
Thanks Scott. I don't think it's wise to use a race engine example as a guide to build a street engine. In a race environment oils get a lot hotter than in a street engine. According to Bob the oil guy, 100F hotter. Again, in my Jeep, normal oil temperature is 20F lower than the coolant, or 180F. There is no oil cooler that I am aware of anyway. Raise that temperature to 280F and a heavier weight oil would be necessary.

My TBird will see many short trips, and it's a much heavier engine, so will take longer to heat up than my Jeep. So much of its life will be spent with the oil temperature less than 180F.

pbf777
05-18-2016, 11:06 AM
You are correct in that one wouldn't necessarily mimic all race engineering for a street engine, but my example was to explain that basically the pressure required is that which is required to overcome inefficiencies in the specific delivery system (and in the race applications more effort is applied and therefore less pressure may be required).

Yes, the engine under load generates more heat, and therefore the oil (among other things) operate at elevated temperatures in competition environment as compared to the average street application. But, ideally we want to keep the oil temps (as typically measured, in the oil pan) in the same average range for either application for best function/purpose of that oil. I feel that oil temps below 140are to cold & temps above 240 getting to hot. Of course there are exceptions, compromises & specific effects one might be looking for which would vary from these values, and yes some race instances do run 100+ more, but not for better effective values from the oil. Typical american V8 street engine's oil should operate normally between 185 +/- 10 range

This is why in high load use applications you find oil coolers; so as to maintain the nominal oil temperature values even when generating more heat, and you see truckers mask their radiators in the winter.

Today's synthetic oils, as compared to what was available when your car was manufactured, are much more stable at varying temperatures and this helps greatly during cold start-up with much more fluid flow (increased pourability). Scott.

Yadkin
05-18-2016, 08:36 PM
From what I've read about synthetics, since the molecules are derived from natural gas they are uniform, thus can be "dialed in" to a specific application. That and there are no impurities. Going way back into my organic chemistry class, I recall that crude oil is basically a "soup", a combination of big heavy molecules all the way to the light ones and volatiles. Thus a 30W oil is really a range of molecules that when mixed, make up a certain viscosity. And of course there are impurities that aren't doing your engine any good at all.

Guessing now, the behavior of the range over operating temperatures is therefore going to vary considerably between batches, and especially dependent on the source crude.

I remember back in the 70's that Quaker State used to advertise itself 'using Pennsylvania crude', with some explanation of consistency. Any consistency was probably more that that source had a longer history, thus wealth of specific data, to evaluate from.

simplyconnected
05-19-2016, 12:23 AM
Last night I disassembled everything on the motor...
...One change I want to make is to put an "RV" type cam in this motor. Roller hydraulic, but I'm going with smoothest idle and low end torque available...Yes, I was wondering what you found in the lifters.

Most people know the performance they want but they don't know how to get it. They normally go overboard on their selection of cams with no understanding of exactly what they are buying. This is where the engine builder needs to intervene as the buyer listens intently.

I hear terms like "mild street cam" or "RV" cam. What they really want is something that pickup trucks offer. RVs are not driven on a daily basis. Pickup trucks are. RVs sit for long periods. Pickup trucks are used daily.

Truck heads have small valves for low end torque, without bogging down. In fact their engines are built for a heavy vehicle (like a classic T-bird) that is just as comfy around town as it is on the interstate. This service includes hauling a trailer but NOT racing.

If you want to race, get a small car with a huge engine like a Cobra or a Mustang because we go by 'horsepower-to-weight'. Build it up and you won't be beat.

Examine this TRUCK piston (C8TE.. from a 390 F-100):
http://www.squarebirds.org/simplyconnected/390Build/DSCN7175a.jpg

Look at the color all around the inside. I heard all the talk about oil and how it runs about 200F. No it doesn't! The only way this piston was cooled was from OIL, bathing the bottom side. Combustion temps far exceed the melting temp of aluminum. This is a testament to aluminum and how well it transfers heat. Even so, conventional oil takes much more heat before it discolors, as the witness marks clearly show. All eight of them commonly send your oil pan to nearly 300F.

Today's oils are better than they were but they don't have ZDDP, a 'must have' for flat tappets. There are many reasons modern engines last 300k (even flat tappet Jeep engines). They LOWERED the compression ratios, raised the operating temps, use far more aluminum and they control coolant temps and air-to-fuel ratios much closer to 14.7:1.

Economy is another issue. If you are running a mechanical fan you're wasting HP by running it when it isn't needed, like at startup and for the next mile or two. Some winters, my electric fan doesn't turn on for months. Your doctor will tell you to lose weight. Your car should lose weight too because a heavy vehicle produces a lot of power to get it going.

pbf777
05-19-2016, 07:54 PM
[QUOTE=Examine this TRUCK piston (C8TE.. from a 390 F-100):
Look at the color all around the inside. I heard all the talk about oil and how it runs about 200F. No it doesn't! The only way this piston was cooled was from OIL, bathing the bottom side. All eight of them (pistons) commonly send your oil pan to nearly 300F. QUOTE: DAVE

If you are referring to numbers in my post?; also note that I qualified them with the - as typically measured in the oil pan - where one finds most (not all) temperature sending units installed. I think this is the relevant perspective to most other forum discussions. And yes, many assumptions are made even here, example: a temp. sending unit mounted high vs low in the reservoir may/will register significantly different numbers.

Your observations of the coked oil on the underside of pistons, and conclusion that it must indicate a higher temperature for the effect is correct. But, we could explore 300 values a little. Does oil (especially modern oils) burn & coke down at this temperature, and considering the time element available w/ parts in motion?

The temperature of the oil as it is ejected from the surfaces of the engine components in operation, it is plumbed to (for in this discussion, limiting to it's cooling value, and to avoid some odd scenario, assume normal operating temps & intentions), IS going to be elevated over that - as measured in the pan - no doubt. Otherwise, where is the heat transfer & cooling function here? These temperature values within a singular engine at any one time, will vary greatly based on specific component involved, engine load & R.P.M.s, and include other variables such as state of tune & ambient temps & weather, conditions, etc., to much to conclude here, that's for sure. But, your value of 300 I'm sure is some where in the mix @ some time & place, but, there ARE other values, far higher also.

Oil is a main source of cooling for the pistons, but not only path of heat dissipation. Others include piston-to-rings-to-cylinder wall-to-water jacket, unfortunately, at times, pistons direct contact w/cylinder wall (until, if persists, friction overcomes), incoming air & fuel charge on piston dome, etc. Scott.

simplyconnected
05-20-2016, 12:53 AM
Squrarebirds.org is one of the friendliest sites on the planet. We are dedicated to helping others as set forth by our founder, Alexander.

With all due respect and I'm trying to be tactful as possible, I'm having a hard time understanding your post and I don't see a question. Usually, I can grasp the main idea but parts of this is far beyond me. Let's take it in small bites:
If you are referring to numbers in my post?; also note that I qualified them with the - as typically measured in the oil pan - where one finds most (not all) temperature sending units installed. I think this is the relevant perspective to most other forum discussions. And yes, many assumptions are made even here, example: a temp. sending unit mounted high vs low in the reservoir may/will register significantly different numbers. Classic Thunderbirds only use a coolant temperature sensor in the intake manifold while BabyBirds have one in the right head. Factory oil pan sensors are not relevant to our site.

Your observations of the coked oil on the underside of pistons, and conclusion that it must indicate a higher temperature for the effect is correct. But, we could explore 300 values a little. Does oil (especially modern oils) burn & coke down at this temperature, and considering the time element available w/ parts in motion?
I'm not quite sure what you are asking. I posted a picture that clearly shows evidence that speaks for itself. The truck was not used for racing and it was not abused.

The temperature of the oil as it is ejected from the surfaces of the engine components in operation, it is plumbed to (for in this discussion, limiting to it's cooling value, and to avoid some odd scenario, assume normal operating temps & intentions), IS going to be elevated over that - as measured in the pan - no doubt. Otherwise, where is the heat transfer & cooling function here? These temperature values within a singular engine at any one time, will vary greatly based on specific component involved, engine load & R.P.M.s, and include other variables such as state of tune & ambient temps & weather, conditions, etc., to much to conclude here, that's for sure. But, your value of 300 I'm sure is some where in the mix @ some time & place, but, there ARE other values, far higher also.Maybe I need to go back to school because from all this I have gleaned; oil temps vary.

Oil is a main source of cooling for the pistons, but not only path of heat dissipation. Others include piston-to-rings-to-cylinder wall-to-water jacket, unfortunately, at times, pistons direct contact w/cylinder wall (until, if persists, friction overcomes), incoming air & fuel charge on piston dome, etc. Scott.Advancements in alloys has produced the hypereutectic aluminum piston which has a lower coefficient of thermal expansion. This allows engine designers to specify much tighter tolerances that ultimately adds to engine life. Tighter tolerances demand thinner oil viscosities if we can hope for flow and oil cooling. - Dave

simplyconnected
05-23-2016, 11:25 AM
Last night I disassembled everything on the motor and the car is getting towed to Mike's tonight or tomorrow morning, then they'll pull the engine out. His engine builder, David, is going to tear it down and inspect everything...What did he find?

stubbie
05-27-2016, 07:39 PM
Interested to know how you went with the lifters Steve?

Yadkin
05-28-2016, 10:51 PM
Me too. Waiting on engine guy.

Yadkin
05-31-2016, 02:07 PM
Just met with David, Mike's engine guy. The only thing he found was that the rings had not seated properly, and two valve stems were worn. He can find no reason why the lifters failed. Everything else was perfect. The cam looks brand new.

He's going to install valve guides where needed, re-hone the block, install new rings and bearings. The other changes that he recommends, and I just approved, is to smooth out the oil drain back holes in the heads, change to a Lunati base type roller cam to get the smoothest idle, a regular flow high pressure oil pump, a stock type oil pan, and use 5W-30 oil.

pbf777
06-01-2016, 09:07 PM
Unfortunately, as I read your post, no conclusion on the failure of the lifters has been established? And, although other tasks have/are being accomplished, the priority reason (lifter failure) for the engine disassembly is going to be ignored, and just hope for the best?

I, can not tell you what the failure is from here, but, based on previous posts explaining your efforts in diagnosing this, may I suggest that you communicate such, and you engine builder's observations to the lifter manufacturer. And not to the first person whom answers the telephone, but hopefully further up the food chain with some-sort of knowledge and capability.

I am hesitant to provide examples of previous experiences, as they may not be directly relevant and may only cloud the factual observations in your case, but, since we have no conclusion to date, allow me.

We had a similar complaint/observation (collapsed after short duration in use) on a new set of hydraulic roller lifters. After lengthy B.S. responses (oil viscosity? etc.) which we said enough! - I finally was forwarded to an engineer in production, who admitted they had been having problems, and in this case, it had been traced to a new water-based machining coolant (E.P.A. got the blame) that was causing corrosion on the micro level on the surface of the body barrel bores during/post machining, and due to improper follow-up procedures, propagated into something that caused the lifters to seize once put into service. Remember, these are very tight clearances in the relationship of the body bore vs. plunger, and there is motion involved in each cycle.

Is this your failure? I didn't say that. But, if you accurately rule out all else, then I would look closely at the lifters themselves and consider the complex execution & function required, and realize that in the current performance-aftermarket lifter supply, you wouldn't be the first dissatisfied customer. Scott.

OX1
06-01-2016, 09:42 PM
Unfortunately, as I read your post, no conclusion on the failure of the lifters has been established? And, although other tasks have/are being accomplished, the priority reason (lifter failure) for the engine disassembly is going to be ignored, and just hope for the best?

I, can not tell you what the failure is from here, but, based on previous posts explaining your efforts in diagnosing this, may I suggest that you communicate such, and you engine builder's observations to the lifter manufacturer. And not to the first person whom answers the telephone, but hopefully further up the food chain with some-sort of knowledge and capability.

I am hesitant to provide examples of previous experiences, as they may not be directly relevant and may only cloud the factual observations in your case, but, since we have no conclusion to date, allow me.

We had a similar complaint/observation (collapsed after short duration in use) on a new set of hydraulic roller lifters. After lengthy B.S. responses (oil viscosity? etc.) which we said enough! - I finally was forwarded to an engineer in production, who admitted they had been having problems, and in this case, it had been traced to a new water-based machining coolant (E.P.A. got the blame) that was causing corrosion on the micro level on the surface of the body barrel bores during/post machining, and due to improper follow-up procedures, propagated into something that caused the lifters to seize once put into service. Remember, these are very tight clearances in the relationship of the body bore vs. plunger, and there is motion involved in each cycle.

Is this your failure? I didn't say that. But, if you accurately rule out all else, then I would look closely at the lifters themselves and consider the complex execution & function required, and realize that in the current performance-aftermarket lifter supply, you wouldn't be the first dissatisfied customer. Scott.

Brand? Production problem fixed?

simplyconnected
06-02-2016, 04:35 AM
Many of our members eagerly awaited your test results because they are fearful of buying defective roller lifters and they truly want a root cause for failure of three sets from different major cam companies.

To our members, rest assured that hydraulic roller cams and lifters have been in our production engines for decades without a single recall. Rockauto.com sells these Sealed Power cams and roller lifters as replacements for these cars:

FORD BRONCO 1992-1993
FORD COUNTRY SQUIRE 1987-1991
FORD E-150 1992-1993
FORD F-150 1992-1993
FORD F-250 1992-1993
FORD LTD CROWN VICTORIA 1985-1991
FORD MUSTANG 1985-1995
FORD THUNDERBIRD 1985-1993
LINCOLN CONTINENTAL 1985-1987
LINCOLN MARK VII 1985-1992
LINCOLN TOWN CAR 1985-1990
MERCURY CAPRI 1985
MERCURY COLONY PARK 1987-1991
MERCURY COUGAR 1985-1993
MERCURY GRAND MARQUIS 1985-1991

This small list represents MILLIONS of cars times 16 lifters each for 8-cyl engines. (6-cyl engines also use roller lifters.) It does not include millions more produced by GM and Chrysler or Ford models past 1993. Believe me, there are MANY lifter manufacturers (not three) because the numbers required are staggering. Hydraulic lifters are common and so are roller lifters again, without recall. Inside the lifter, they are identical to flat tappet but 1/2" taller to accommodate the roller.

Here is a picture of the lifters Rockauto.com sells with their Sealed Power camshafts. The internals are identical to yours with a link:
http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=12794&stc=1&d=1464855742
Just met with David, Mike's engine guy. The only thing he found was that the rings had not seated properly, and two valve stems were worn. He can find no reason why the lifters failed. Everything else was perfect...

I'm sorry but this cavalier answer is no consolation for the failure of 48 hydraulic lifters. We asked for disassembly pictures and offered to disassemble a few for free. If you use the same builder, expect the same conclusion for this set of lifters as the last three sets. For your sake I hope he includes a warranty on this rebuild. Most good engine builders offer two years for free. (http://www.dsengine.com/warranty/index.html) Yes, that includes engines with roller cams. - Dave

pbf777
06-02-2016, 11:14 AM
Brand? Production problem fixed?

Naming a specific brand supplier of components in this instance would do no good, as they are not involved in this scenario, they also claim that the then production difficulties are rectified, and of course many "brands" (particularly lifters) are only repackaged product, and are constantly changing. This also explains why you may purchase product for the same application, but of two different brands, and receive the same results.

I am not aware of how many manufactures of engine lifters there are in the world today, but it isn't many; as the production requirements are exacting, and although volumes are great, volume customers are few. As a matter of fact, in the period of "Squarebirds" Ford did not manufacture lifters but GM did, and Ford was a customer.

The problem today, is that the lifters your buying (FE hyd. roller & others) are a non O.E.M. contract product, of relatively low production, targeted for the aftermarket performance industry. This market generally offers no warranties to consumers and suffers minimal fear/repercussion if the product is somewhat less than ideal (no contract for a million units at risk or recalls), and therefore may use suppliers that would be described as "secondary standard" suppliers to the O.E.s at best.

I not implying that all are bad, it's just that sometimes there are "issues", and it is difficult to discern the good from the bad.

So, establish proper engine building techniques, including measure lifter/bore clearance (all 16!), and in an FE, with possible oil deficiencies to lifters to blame, I would recommend the "high volume" oil pump. Scott.

Yadkin
06-02-2016, 12:24 PM
Unfortunately, as I read your post, no conclusion on the failure of the lifters has been established? ...
Not yet. I'm having David dissect a pair of the Lunatis, he's now looking at the Howards, and I'll do the same.

To summarize:
1. Comp. Kevin found out that they had a production problem (although they wouldn't admit it outright).
2. Crane. Longhair I hired screwed up, adjusted past the bottom of the plunger.
3. Lunati. Worked fine for 5-1/2 months, failed after running at 3500 rpm. 15W-50 oil. Cause TBD.
4. Howards. Failed immediately. 10W-30 oil. Cause TBD.

OX1
06-02-2016, 08:10 PM
Naming a specific brand supplier of components in this instance would do no good, as they are not involved in this scenario, they also claim that the then production difficulties are rectified

This market generally offers no warranties to consumers and suffers minimal fear/repercussion if the product is somewhat less than ideal (no contract for a million units at risk or recalls), and therefore may use suppliers that would be described as "secondary standard" suppliers to the O.E.s at best.



I disagree, word of mouth is the only recourse we have (and hopefully if bad enough, results in reduced sales and forces attention). I want to hear full details about any failure of any part, even if suspected to be caused by the user.

Randy
06-03-2016, 10:29 PM
First off I'm back, not that anybody noticed, 3 weeks Pneumonia,
and over working. This is a Thread I had be watching with the utmost interest. I'm in agreement with OX1. Help me to understand, Is pbf777 saying, he Knows of some bad product or manufacturer, but Caveat Emptor , I must still be sick.
..
Yadkin my offer on post #53 still holds. I'll throw in bottle of scotch too, get a set of bad lifters to Dave, seem to me we need all the help we can get, Yadkin sorry its has to be very frustrating.
but if you can save someone else of the headache, that would be something at least. there are a lot of Squares looking for the outcome, a Lot. hoping you find the ans. soon

YellowRose
06-04-2016, 02:02 AM
Randy, I thought you were just taking a break from things. I am glad to hear that you are recovering and back at it again. Take care!

Yadkin
06-04-2016, 12:45 PM
Randy that bottle of scotch will help with your recovery: "for medicinal purposes only". Let's see what David, my new engine builder her locally, says after he dissects the Lunati lifters.

Looking at this situation overall, there are several common denominators differentiating from a stock setup. Four times, though not all the commons are common for all four.

1. Me, 3 out of 4. Assembling the lifters into the bores and adjusting. The 4th was Longhair, and I know exactly how he screwed up. David is doing the entire assembly so that eliminates that commonality.

2. HV oil pump in 4/4. David recommends I go with a stock flow, high pressure. He was concerned about the HV pumping the pan dry, and based on what happened with the Lunatis that does make sense. This has the added bonus of letting me go back to a stock oil pan instead of that stupid looking T shape on the bottom end. Since we are going with 5W-30 oil, David's installing new bearings with tighter tolerances.

3. Performance cam. I've decided that I like a smooth idle and good fuel economy better than a few extra horses at a high RPM. So I'm going back to an OEM grind, albeit a hydraulic roller, so it's going to be more than the stock 300HP anyway.

The only issue David found with the engine was that the rings had not seated properly. David thinks that Kevin may have been too smooth with his final hone. So re-hone, new rings.

simplyconnected
06-04-2016, 03:37 PM
I'm trying to help, not criticize. You have learned a lot from the start of this build and now you are going through a metamorphose of change through a total major overhaul. Some of your changes are in the correct direction and some simply are not.

What materials and methods do modern engines use? <--This should be in the forefront of every one of your decisions because modern engines are guaranteed to work for at least 12,000 miles but more than not, they last 250,000 miles. Many never see the dealership from beginning to end. In manufacturing engineering, there are many thousands of hours devoted to these engines by highly educated, trained and experienced Engine Engineers. The engines go through tons of destructive testing under every load condition then we submit to the federal gov't (for economy), write the manuals, and mass produce.

At Ford, we cut our pistons, let them 'normalize' in a constant temp room for hours, then air-gauge. They come out four different sizes. At the start of every shift a coordinator looks at the piston silos then he calls the block dept to brush the bores to the size of pistons used for that shift. Yes, tolerances are that close.

We use moly rings and a two-step honing process to achieve a plateau finish. We hone with a conventional #280 grit silicon carbide vitrified abrasive then finish by briefly touching the bores with several strokes using an abrasive brush. Our pistons are hypereutectic alloy aluminum, not forged.

A good engine builder will recognize these materials and methods, and use them. We don't tighten bearing clearances or use high pressure oil pumps. We use aluminum heads built to burn gasohol. We use roller cams & lifters, built to run in common conventional oil. Many of our engines (mostly overhead cam) have NO cam bearing inserts (and haven't since 1980).

I don't know the people you are dealing with but I would RUN as far away from them as possible. Find a good FE engine builder, not someone still learning from books but real mechanics with vast experience in Ford engine rebuilding. One who actually guarantees his builds. I know you have them because Detroit has many.

You have had lifter failures but in each case you don't know how or why they failed. The first one was a 'production problem' but we still don't know what the problem actually is for lack of inspection.
The second was, 'adjusted past the bottom of the plunger'.
If that caused damage to the internals it would show up immediately upon inspection.
The third, '...Worked fine for 5-1/2 months, failed after running at 3500 rpm.' Lifters don't fail after running twice that speed or ten times the number of months.
The fourth 'failed immediately'. This isn't coincidence any longer.

Valve guides do not show excessive wear in 300 miles or 30,000 miles. If the guides are out of tolerance now, they were before your build. Rings only seat under a load. If you went easy on the engine It's not unusual they did not fully seat in 300 miles.

I expect none of your bad lifters are coming my way and that's ok but... you are an administrator on this site and after hundreds of posts regarding your engine build, many of our members are asking for your help in finding the root cause of your lifter problems. Lifter examination doesn't cost money in comparison to the cost of many new sets. Proper examination will tell what went wrong. - Dave

Yadkin
06-05-2016, 09:55 PM
We all know that only guys in Michigan can build engines, and that no modifications should ever be made outside of 1960's era Ford specifications. Wait, isn't Survival Motorsports, leaders in FE modifications, in Michigan?

simplyconnected
06-06-2016, 01:10 AM
We all know that only guys in Michigan can build engines, and that no modifications should ever be made outside of 1960's era Ford specifications. Wait, isn't Survival Motorsports, leaders in FE modifications, in Michigan?Steve, I just laid out several modern modifications with the question, "what do modern engines use". I don't know where you got the notion about keeping it stock.

We have many FE gurus here:

Barry Rabotnick owns Survival (http://www.survivalmotorsports.com/index.html). He comes to us from Holley Carburetor and Federal-Mogul.
John Vermeersch owns Total Performance Inc., and the Detroit Michigan chapter of the Ford Galaxie Club of America. John also runs the Motorsports Technical Hotline.
Lideo Iccobelli (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alternative-Auto-Performance/103855573015194) and his brother come from wrenching on Fords for years at a major Ford dealership. They started and own, Alternative Auto Performance and are truly Ford gurus. They dyno tune and specialize in supercharger installation. Their cars are commonly found at Ubly (Michigan) Dragway.

I'm friends with John and Lideo but I use other engine machine shops around my house. As said, we have many.

Yadkin
06-06-2016, 09:27 AM
I read Barry's book, so did Kevin. We did the oiling system modifications based on Barry's book. That was my point.

Kevin took a year to get my motor done, not because he's slow, but because I was on a long waiting list. He has a very long list of clients, many racers in the local circuits here. It's not the first FE he has built or engine that he has modified. His buddy Aubrey balanced the components. These guys are 2nd generation builders and bleed crude oil.

David is my second choice, merely because I don't want to wait a year to get this fixed and miss another summer of cruising. He's got a boatload of experience as well, and comes highly recommended.

You seem to think that these Southern Boys are incompetent and dumb. Detroiters made these engines, but Southerners made them faster to outrun the revenuers, and invented NASCAR.

simplyconnected
06-06-2016, 12:35 PM
...You seem to think that these Southern Boys are incompetent and dumb...Steve, have you ever heard of Virginia Dare? I know you are from New York but Dare County is in the Outer Banks. My family started the South and we have a deep love for her. Virginia Dare (born August 18, 1587, was the first white Christian child born in the British Colonies in the New World. That predates Jamestown (1607).

This thread pertains to failed lifters. Got any new information about them? - Dave

Yadkin
06-06-2016, 02:51 PM
This thread pertains to failed lifters.

Oh really?


I don't know the people you are dealing with but I would RUN as far away from them as possible.

Randy
06-06-2016, 09:46 PM
Southern Gentlemen can we just get this Bird to fly.

Yadkin
06-07-2016, 09:41 AM
Waiting for parts. The new cam is a two-week wait. :(

Yadkin
07-01-2016, 05:25 PM
Engine delivered back to the shop earlier today. They'll install it and flatbed the car back to me next week.

When it rains it pours. My 74 Fiat spider project just came back from the paint shop today. For the last month I'd had nothing to do but spit-shine my tools. Now my garage is overfilled.

Randy
07-01-2016, 11:27 PM
Yeah good for you Yadkin
I like the to see your garage, with a Spider :)

Yadkin
07-05-2016, 08:55 AM
Here's the 74 Spider, back in her web. That car was $4400 when new. I'm working on a custom, carved wood panel for the dash.

4 cyl, DOHC, solid lifters. 1.8 liters making a whopping 115 HP. 5 speed overdrive transmission. 4 wheel disc brakes with an active pressure modulator for the rears.

Yadkin
07-16-2016, 10:04 AM
Car's back in my garage, delivered yesterday. Hopefully I'll have time next week to get the water pump, radiator, efi and all the rest back on. Has VR1 30w in it for break in. Dave and Mike want to be there for initial start up. Super busy at work though, have a vacation coming up the week after so have to get a stack done there.

Yadkin
07-20-2016, 08:16 AM
Got 'er done. Well, nearly. I need to find a fitting for my mechanical oil pressure gage, prime the oil pump, drop in the distributor and turn the key.

Yadkin
08-06-2016, 11:13 PM
Well, the car's been running for about two weeks now and the lifters are nice and quiet.

However I've been having problems with the Taylor "Street Thunder" spark plug wires that I bought recently. Several of the connectors came off when I've removed them, they weren't crimped on well. So I purchased a crimp tool, new Taylor terminals and repaired all 8.

Yesterday I ran the car 90 miles down I-40 and it ran well. But, when I got off at my exit it was missing one or more cylinders.

I had another 50 miles to get to my destination here in the mountains and I barely made it.

Tonight I took the plugs out, finding this.

Plug 1 is upper left, 8 is lower right. Guess which spark plug wire was not doing its job? Advance Auto Parts in Boone has a set of MSD wires on the shelf with my name on them.

I also found #3 insulator was cracked. This is the second Autolite plug that I have cracked in three months- never cracked a plug prior to that. I have a new set of Motorcraft plugs in Boone as well.

Yadkin
08-26-2016, 09:01 AM
The MSD universal set is much better than the Taylors. The boots fit the plugs perfectly, and the connections are a "snap".