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Yadkin
10-08-2015, 11:24 AM
I'm starting to think about my next mod, and that would be electronic fuel injection. Professional Products has a throttle body system that looks nearly foolproof, Powerjection III. Remanufactured kits are about $1100. I figure another 2-300 for supply and return lines and their fuel on demand module, which would reduce the pump noise at idle. Not really sure how I would install the return on my existing tank though.

http://professional-products.com/fuel-injection/powerjection-iii/remanufactured-powerjection-iii-complete-kit-polished-finish

franklin
10-08-2015, 11:00 PM
Please keep us posted on your project! I would love to do something with F.I.

Yadkin
10-09-2015, 11:06 AM
This won't be for a while, as I need to iron out some other issues and let my wallet rest a bit. I'd like to know what others have experienced with these systems.

I intended to install an oxygen sensor in the exhaust to help me tune the carburetor, and I actually have one with a bung to weld on when I change out my mufflers. But I'm afraid my old carburetor isn't long for this world. The E85 gas is probably eating it up; as I'm experiencing really poor fuel mileage.

Instead of buying a new after market carburetor I'd rather spend a little more for better starting and driveability.

stubbie
10-09-2015, 10:46 PM
I just looked at a youtube video about that system and the guys says $1650 to $1750 to get it up and running but that's a pretty good price considering the Holley EFI is about $2300.

simplyconnected
10-09-2015, 11:43 PM
Summitracing.com is about the only good vendor who KNOWS EFI systems. You should talk with them.

They sold me a unit, made by a company who ONLY makes EFI systems. FAST (Fuel, Air, Spark Technology). I looked at Holly, Edelbrock, MSD, and many more. Then, I bought a FAST Fuel Injection EZ-EFI Self-Tuning Fuel Injection System.

The price depends on what components you need. If you have a programmer or an electric fuel pump the price drops dramatically.

When I install it, I will post pictures. - Dave

Yadkin
10-10-2015, 11:19 AM
The price also depends on if you get a remanufactured unit. Pro products advertise these on their site for about 60% of new.

Dave, why did you choose the FAST system?

simplyconnected
10-11-2015, 04:05 AM
The FAST system bolts right on our 4X4 intake manifolds. A few tasks are sometimes too much for the typical backyard mechanic:
Welding the bung into the exhaust,
Mounting an electric fuel pump system
Running a return fuel line.

The return line can be small. Very small. My fuel tanks have a vent that I can simply tap into so that part is easy. I weld and I fabricate. I prefer to put the pump inside the fuel tank but that isn't necessary for this conversion.

EFI atomizes the fuel under 50+ psi so a lot more of the fuel is burned. The oxygen sensor maintains 14.7:1 air-to-fuel ratio which does a few things:
Correct mixture optimizes horsepower which optimizes economy. This system pays for itself in fuel savings alone. EFI opens the door to accessories like 'remote start' and it puts an end to vapor lock forever. These systems are like modern cars where you simply turn the key and forget having some days where your engine runs better than others. Temperature, humidity, altitude.. none of this matters anymore. When is the last time you heard of a EFI engine flooding? Those days are gone too.

I personally spoke with the Ford Racing guys, Edelbrock guys, and many more at the last Detroit Autorama. All the systems are good. Let's just say they all beat the crap out of carburetion. Some systems cost more than others and some systems are meant for highly specialized engines, such as racing applications. I don't have that. This system simply asks if I have a stock cam, mild street cam or hot cam. That's it. The injectors are part of the throttle body as well as temp, barometric pressure and wide open throttle sensors. I can even use my stock air cleaner and nobody will be the wiser.

Summit recommended this system. They sell all the different systems but this one has the fewest returns and the greatest customer satisfaction. So, I try. - Dave

Yadkin
10-11-2015, 09:37 AM
There is a vent on the top of my tank now. I have a rubber hose from that to my vapor recovery system. Is that where you ran your return? How do you keep the tank from running a vacuum?

simplyconnected
10-11-2015, 11:10 PM
Seriously? If your tank is vented, how can it run a vacuum OR a positive pressure? If you're not sure, use a vented gas tank cap.

My tank vents come off the top of the tank, go into the trunk with a high loop than exit just beside the filler neck. If I open my fuel filler door I can see the vent hole.

Yadkin
10-12-2015, 06:23 PM
Mine's vented through a carbon canister. I have a sealed cap, the filler tube is vented just below the cap with a 1/2 hose. The small tank vent is an additional vent, probably not needed now, so I can run the return to it.

The FAST system has a lifetime warranty. The Performance Products is only 90 days.

What about an in tank fuel pump? How difficult is that to install with the OE sending unit? Does the pump just roll around on the bottom of the tank?

Yadkin
10-13-2015, 12:46 AM
Looks like the FAST doesn't work with E85?

simplyconnected
10-13-2015, 07:48 AM
Have you ever heard of any EFI system that won't handle gasohol? Every major city across the USA ONLY pumps gasohol for cars.

Yadkin
10-13-2015, 07:05 PM
FAST states in their FAQ that the EZ EFI unit is not for E85, but that may change. I have an email to them for a response.

stubbie
10-13-2015, 08:38 PM
Speaking of vented gas tank caps. I opened my gas tank the other day and it had quite a build up of fumes. The car was in the garage and not in the sun. Should the standard cap be vented or not? Thanks

simplyconnected
10-13-2015, 08:56 PM
Stubbie, should the cap be vented, for what car? Squarebirds did not use a separate vent tube so they need a vented cap. My '55 and '59 Fords have a separate vent tube so no vented cap is necessary.

simplyconnected
10-13-2015, 09:36 PM
Have you ever heard of any EFI system that won't handle gasohol? Every major city across the USA ONLY pumps gasohol for cars.Our pump gas is E-10, and I guess it is all over the US, not E-85. Car manufacturers still oppose using any higher concentration of alcohol than 10% unless the engine was specifically built for it.

stubbie
10-14-2015, 01:09 AM
Sorry it's a 64 Tbird 390 6.4 auto

JJbird
10-14-2015, 01:26 AM
Yes, you need a vented cap.

Yadkin
10-14-2015, 09:56 AM
Our pump gas is E-10, and I guess it is all over the US, not E-85. Car manufacturers still oppose using any higher concentration of alcohol than 10% unless the engine was specifically built for it.

You know I got confused on this, thinking E85 is pump gas. You are correct: E-10 is what is commonly available. Pure gasoline is only available here in a few independent stations. E85 is basically ethanol, mixed with a little bit of gas so that drunks won't drink it. E85 is not commonly available here.

Bottom line, my carburetor has apparently been damaged by E-10. I smell gas when I'm driving and I can't find any tell-tale leaks after I'm stopped.

So any of the new EFI systems that we've been discussing are compatible with E-10, correct?

Yadkin
10-14-2015, 10:11 AM
Summitracing.com is about the only good vendor who KNOWS EFI systems. You should talk with them.

I called their tech line yesterday and talked to "Cole". He knew slightly less than I did, apparently, as I could hear him flipping through pages of their catalog trying to answer my specific questions.

I told him that I liked the compact design of the Professional Products Powerjection III so he said, yeah that will be good. Then I expressed concern about the electronics being mounted directly over a hot cast iron manifold and there was silence.

Then I told him I liked the lifetime warranty offered by FAST and he flipped through some more pages and recommended the FAST EZ-EFI 2.0, which is 8 injectors (two in each venturi).

I think that is overkill for my application. The FAST EZ-EFI (1.0) is less money and can still support 200 more HP than I have.

Yadkin
10-14-2015, 02:46 PM
Looks like the FAST EZI-EFI 1.0 is the way to go. Drag Parts USA has the best price at $1600 delivered.

I just talked with TankInc and they are providing the pump kit: PA-2 kit with extra length hose for my 14.4" deep tank. They also are providing a steel recess to put the top fittings below the upper floor of my trunk, $284 delivered.

Rock Auto has my tank, a Spectra F37A, for $168 delivered. A new tank is safer than cutting/ welding onto my new one.

Now I just have to work out the plumbing: pump supply (1/4" NPT F) to hose to filter to hose to 3/8" steel line to hose to EFI to regulator to hose to 1/4" steel line to hose to pump return (1/4" NPT F). I'm having Drag Parts work up a parts list for me.

Wudro
10-14-2015, 03:24 PM
Looking forward to hear how much a difference it makes. And seeing some pics!

simplyconnected
10-14-2015, 05:59 PM
"Fuel tank technology" has improved over the years. We always had a problem with fuel delivery while climbing long, steep mountains, especially when the tank was 1/4-filled or less.

Remember that EFI fuel pumps are small but powerful. They sit IN the fuel and they use the fuel to cool the motor. A EFI fuel pump that is allowed to run 'dry' will burn up, so don't run out of gas.

OEM tanks have an area inside that is like a big cup with high walls, where the EFI pickup sits in the middle. When level, the cup fills up from a tube facing forward. The tube snakes around the cup and enters the cup from the rear. The tube is about 1/2" diameter.

While climbing, the gas sloshes to the back of the tank while this 'cup' deal still holds a few pints of fuel. The 1/2" tube resumes filling the cup when the car is level again. The reason the tube snakes around is for when your car is descending the mountain. The cup provides enough fuel so the engine still gets gas (so it won't die) and the pickup is always submerged in fuel.

Aftermarket EFI systems use a separate pump, out of the tank. They have their own reserve of fuel to protect the pump motor. So you see, it's not just fuel pressure you need, but also consider a constant source of fuel.

I also bought a new tank for the '55. I cut the old 'cup' out of my Mustang tank and I'm in the process of installing it (and the Mustang fuel pump) into the new tank. If I'm not successful, I will use a separate fuel pump (outside the tank). - Dave

stubbie
10-14-2015, 09:33 PM
You could also use a swirl pot like they use in race cars. A small cylindrical aluminium pot with an inlet and outlet just somewhere between the tank and the external fuel pump. It provides constant fuel for when you are cornering or as Dave said climbing up and down hills.

simplyconnected
10-14-2015, 09:58 PM
Stubbie, tell me more about the swirl pot. I'm learning something here. - Dave

Yadkin
10-14-2015, 11:23 PM
Dave, here's one of the more common ones. You use a regular low pressure mechanical pump to keep this full, and it contains it's own high pressure pump for the EFI system.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/36052/10002/-1?CAWELAID=230006180000989014&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180000850609&cadevice=c&gclid=CJTFq7K1w8gCFYcYHwodnDAC2g

Yadkin
10-14-2015, 11:43 PM
Here's the Flow Scheme and parts list.

Pump Tanks Inc PA-2 supply 1/4" NPT F
Russell 660433 1/4" NPT M to 6AN Male
Russell 610095 6AN F to hose 45 swivel
hose 2' ProClassic II
Russell 610095 6AN F to hose 45 swivel
Russell 660463 3/8" NPT M to 6AN Male
AEI-12308 Filter
Russell 660463 3/8" NPT M to 6AN Male
Russell 610165 6AN F to hose 90 swivel
hose 2' ProClassic II
Russell 610165 6AN F to hose 90 swivel
Russell 660463 3/8" NPT M to 6AN Male
3/8" OD Compression x 3/8" FNPT
3/8 steel supply tube
3/8" OD Compression x 3/8" FNPT
Russell 660463 3/8" NPT M to 6AN Male
Russell 610025 6AN F to hose straight swivel
hose 4' ProClassic II
Russell 610095 6AN F to hose 45 swivel
EFI FST30226-KIT
Russell 610165 6AN F to hose 90 swivel
hose 2' ProClassic II
Russell 610165 6AN F to hose 90 swivel
Russell 660353 6AN M to M union
Regulator AFS12308 -gage ATM2173
Russell 660273 6AN Plug
Russell 660353 6AN M to M union
Russell 610095 6AN F to hose 45 swivel
hose 2' ProClassic II
Russell 610025 6AN F to hose straight swivel
Russell 660443 1/4" NPT M to 6AN Male
1/4" OD Compression x 1/4" FNPT
1/4" steel return tube
1/4" OD Compression x 1/4" FNPT
Russell 660443 1/4" NPT M to 6AN Male
Russell 610095 6AN F to hose 45 swivel
hose 1' ProClassic II
Russell 610165 6AN F to hose 90 swivel
Pump return

Yadkin
10-14-2015, 11:51 PM
Drag Parts USA had the best price on the EFI unit, filter and regulator.
Baxter Automotive (through Amazon) had good prices on the fittings, about 1/2 of what Summit sells them for.
Zoro had the steel compression fittings, good for up to 5000 psi.

simplyconnected
10-15-2015, 12:39 AM
I like using 45-degree flare fittings. They're cheap, they last forever, I can flare my own pipe and they are available everywhere.
I like staying away from rubber hoses and hose fittings wherever possible.

I noticed that the Edelbrock sump is not under high pressure. in fact it's vented.

Yadkin
10-15-2015, 09:10 AM
I use hoses because the tight confines of the work space does not give me the access to work flare fittings. Also between the chassis components and the engine.

Yadkin
10-15-2015, 09:14 AM
Dave, here's one of the more common ones. You use a regular low pressure mechanical pump to keep this full, and it contains it's own high pressure pump for the EFI system.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/36052/10002/-1?CAWELAID=230006180000989014&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180000850609&cadevice=c&gclid=CJTFq7K1w8gCFYcYHwodnDAC2g

No room for this under my hood! And after this mod, all the gas in the parked car will be sealed, or vented through a carbon canister. No more stink in my basement garage!

stubbie
10-16-2015, 09:47 PM
I have been trying to post a picture of a swirl pot but my new computer has crashed and burned so it's off being repaired I'm attempting this on my old laptop rebuild and not having any success another problem. If only I had a dollar for every hour spent fixing these computers my bird would be totally rebuilt by now. A swirl pot is a small cannister about 4" diameter by 6 to 8" tall that is fixed somewwhere lower outside of your fuel tank. If i remember you run like a facet pump to keep the pot full and then the EFI System draws fuel from that pot. You can run your EFI return into the pot or your tank. You can also run a return from the pot to the tank. It is designed to stop your EFI running out of fuel when cornering if the tank is low on fuel.
http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd464/Stubbie10/IMG_1524_zpsckugblsk.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Stubbie10/media/IMG_1524_zpsckugblsk.jpg.html)
Got it.

simplyconnected
10-17-2015, 01:07 AM
Stubbie, I love the idea of a swirl pot. Now you got me thinking about my system. - Dave

stubbie
10-17-2015, 03:18 AM
Dave the one I pictured is quite tall 8" as we had lots of space bellow and in front of the tank. It has a fuel out at the bottom, fuel in, EFI return and tank return at the top. You would probably have to do some calculations on how much fuel is siphoned by the EFI per minute to get the size of pot that you need. I remembered this morning that I rebuilt the tank on the race car 20+ years ago so I got under and took a look and it appears that I built a pot into the new ally tank as you mentioned earlier.

Yadkin
11-02-2015, 09:23 AM
Super busy the last three weeks and now I'm getting back on it.

The new EFI requires a square wave tach signal so I purchased a FAST E6 Ignition system and will install that first. It will use my OE distributor and points (for now).

The EFI also has its own coolant temperature sensor, and the resistance curve is different than my OE type that I'm using for my OE gauge and electronic cooling fan control. No sense to "tee" them together, as that would be messy (OE unit is 1/8" NPT; new one is 3/8" NPT). So I'm taking the opportunity to clean up my heater hose routing:


remove the circuit through the carb spacer;
remove the choke heater;
replace the OE type heater outlet adapter with a 1/2" MNPT, place sensor in the branch of the tee;
elbow, 1/2" FNPT Tee, 1/2" MPT to 5/8" barb.


This eliminates 8 hose clamps and two 5/8" nylon tees.

simplyconnected
11-02-2015, 01:50 PM
Wait a minute...
Your electric fan thermostat should run off the radiator, not the engine. The fan only turns on when the radiator gets hot. In winter months my electric fan may NEVER turn on even though the engine is up to temp. It makes no sense to blow sub-freezing air through a cold radiator.

Think about this, if your engine gets hot the electric cooling fan should have cooled the radiator a long time ago. Why didn't that happen before the radiator was 180 degrees?

Your Gauge Temp Sensor needs to be close to the thermostat to give an accurate report on engine temp. Your EFI Temp Sensor also needs to be here and so does the heater core's input hose. That's a tee with three devices: Gauge Temp Sensor, EFI Temp Sensor, and Heater Core input hose.

As far as your Fuel Injectors go, they have always been controlled by Pulse Width Modulation. You can see the on-times stretch and shrink on a scope set to 12VDC. Because you don't have eight injectors, the size of the ones you have are huge. Keep that fuel line pressure up so the injectors can properly atomize the fuel. - Dave

Yadkin
11-02-2015, 04:54 PM
I know, Dave, we've had this discussion before. I set up my fan controller based on my theory of operation, and I think it works very well. Our opinions differ; no need to re-hash it.

You have a point with the new temperature sensor that makes me think I may need to keep at least part of my bypass system. Here's the OE configuration and option 1.

In this option, the sensor is out of the flow (if the heater valve is turned off), but it is metal-to-metal contact.

Yadkin
11-02-2015, 05:01 PM
Option 2 ensures constant flow past the sensor #2, even with the valve closed. Option 3 is what I prefer based on the neatest installation. The sensor #2 would be threaded into the existing steel fitting (assuming there is enough thickness to tap a pipe thread). That's as close to the thermostat (and manifold) without tapping the manifold itself.

Option 4 (not shown) would be to tap the fitting (per option 3) with the flow path of option 2.

Yadkin
11-03-2015, 10:22 AM
The manufacturer of the EFI unit and the ignition system (same manufacturer) wants me to wire both units directly to the battery. Both are 12 ga wires. Both manuals state this emphatically. The EFI wire passes through a 25 amp fuse in the harness but there is no fuse in the ignition harness.

My my custom power panel main lug is isolated from the battery through a 100 amp breaker. Then I back feed the OE panel with a 40 amp fuse (the same amperage as the OE alternator). All the high amp systems (cooling fan, headlights, horn, stereo) are on different fuses in the custom panel, so the OE panel draws a lot less than the factory intended. I would much rather power both of these new systems off that 40 amp fuse. Or better yet, off 25 amp fuses in my custom panel.

Any thoughts on this Dave?

simplyconnected
11-03-2015, 12:02 PM
The manufacturer of the EFI unit and the ignition system (same manufacturer) wants me to wire both units directly to the battery. Both are 12 ga wires. Both manuals state this emphatically. The EFI wire passes through a 25 amp fuse in the harness but there is no fuse in the ignition harness. I'm good with #12 wire fused w/25-amp because your wiring is in free air, not in a raceway or conduit. 'Free air' sheds heat faster, otherwise a continuously flowing (100% duty cycle) circuit wired w/#12 would normally get a 20-amp fuse.

They are following Ford's scheme of NOT fusing the ignition circuit. That really means, the wires ARE the fuses.

My my custom power panel main lug is isolated from the battery through a 100 amp breaker. Then I back feed the OE panel with a 40 amp fuse (the same amperage as the OE alternator). All the high amp systems (cooling fan, headlights, horn, stereo) are on different fuses in the custom panel, so the OE panel draws a lot less than the factory intended. I would much rather power both of these new systems off that 40 amp fuse. Or better yet, off 25 amp fuses in my custom panel.

Any thoughts on this Dave?Here's the deal... when everything was hard contacts and coils, the failure rate was very low. When we introduced solid state, the rules changed.

Solid state components fail in two ways, they either open or they short circuit. Solid state components need full voltage to work well (and as required by your EFI and Pertronix manufacturers). FAST wants NO 'nuisance tripping' which I agree with BUT... Fuses and circuit breakers are there to protect THE WIRE, period. If you use heavy enough wire with an appropriate fuse, the solid state components can fail and the fuse will still protect the wire from melting.

I like the idea of a 40-amp fuse with #10 wire, feeding your ignition AND EFI. 40-amps is more power than they will ever need and if something shorts to ground the fuse will still protect the wire and prevent your battery from draining.

I fuse the alternator separately. That wire should go from the alt to your fuse mounted on the fender apron, directly to the battery (or starter solenoid). That way massive current should never go through your fuse panel.

RE: water flow schemes
I agree with you about NOT using a bypass tee to the water pump. Considering T-bird cooling issues, it doesn't make sense to put hot engine coolant right back into the water pump. Hot coolant should always go to the radiator. Coolant exiting the heater core is already cooled so that can go to the water pump.

Yadkin
11-03-2015, 02:14 PM
We're on the same page, both issues. The manufacturer of these systems warranties them for life, but that won't cover a fire if the wire becomes a fuse.

I have several spots in my custom fuse panel for two new 25 amp circuits to use for the new ignition and the EFI power.

For the temperature sensor, I'll attempt option 3 and go with option 1 if for some reason I can't tap that existing steel fitting. There should be plenty of turbulence in that area to keep the sensor at the actual manifold coolant temperature, even if the heater valve is closed.

Yadkin
11-05-2015, 10:28 AM
Dave, your opinion please.

On the EZ-EFI harness, the red 12 gauge wire supplying battery voltage to the harness has a 25 amp fuse in the harness, then is spliced to feed three devices:

12 gauge to the "Fuel Pump Controller" (powers the fuel pump)
16 gage to the relay (powers the injectors and the O2 sensor)
18 gage to the ECU


I'm not using the "Fuel Pump Controller" portion of the EZ-EFI harness. Can I therefore reduce the size of the fuse from 25 amps to 15 or 20? A 15 fuse will protect the 18 gauge wire, but I'm not sure if that's enough power to run the O2 sensor.

simplyconnected
11-05-2015, 11:30 AM
Yes absolutely, but be aware... The oxygen sensor has an internal heater that draws ~8-amps and the signal is a few milliamps. So, there is half of your fuse capacity. - Dave

Yadkin
11-05-2015, 01:50 PM
How many amps do the four injectors draw?

simplyconnected
11-05-2015, 03:31 PM
Not much because they are pulsed until wide open throttle. I don't know the exact amperages.

Yadkin
11-05-2015, 03:52 PM
They can't be much. It seems that they are similar to a relay, where the 12V input creates a magnetic field to trigger a "switch", in this case a needle valve.

I'll start with 15 amps and see what happens.

Yadkin
11-06-2015, 08:39 AM
I ran the harness through the firewall last night. I removed the main sheath, then disconnected most of the wires at the ECU connector, numbering them with the corresponding pin out as I removed them. Then I fed the wires through my new grommet on the vertical wall, left of the brake and below the OE wiring bulkhead connector. I'll install the ECU on the horizontal dash panel above the drivers left leg. I'll install the relay beside it. The O2 harness will feed through the cabin out the large oval hole in the floor pan where the E brake cable runs through. No wire splicing of the FAST harness required!

franklin
11-06-2015, 10:21 PM
You guys are impressive! Like watching a motorized version of Big Bang Theory!

Dan Leavens
11-08-2015, 09:51 AM
Frank you are correct they are impressive which I why I always say this is the best TBird site on the planet:D

Yadkin
11-10-2015, 09:36 AM
I didn't have a drill big enough so had my local speed shop tap the heater hose fitting for me. He was concerned about the fact that I'd have no water running through it with my heater valve shut. I tested it with my infrared thermometer last night, and the temperature lags behind the manifold during warm-up by about 20 degrees. No big deal.

It really cleans up the top of the motor though. This is option 3 from post 38.

Yadkin
11-10-2015, 09:45 AM
Here's the ignition box and coil mounted behind my custom power panel. The white sock has the loose wires for the EFI harness in it, a temporary set-up until I'm done with the rest of the install.

Yadkin
11-10-2015, 09:47 AM
Here's the ECU mounted under the dash, above the driver's left leg. Plenty of room, and I have access to the indicator LED on the face of the unit.

Yadkin
11-10-2015, 10:06 AM
The FAST forum answered my question about the "Fuel Pump Relay" wire from the ECU. It is to be connected to the relay coil ground, and serves to turn the pump on-off.

Right now I have that relay controlled on the positive side with a wire from ignition. I'll re-work it to use the ECU ground switching.

Yadkin
11-10-2015, 04:18 PM
O2 sensor installed and connected.

simplyconnected
11-10-2015, 05:06 PM
It's coming along nicely. You should be ready soon. Good job, Steve.

Yadkin
11-10-2015, 05:42 PM
Thanks Dave.

Here's what the new tank looks like with the pump installed.

I forgot to take pictures of the internals. But here's the manufacturer's page. I just had to modify it by lengthening the vertical bracket. http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=84/category_id=61/mode=prod/prd84.htm

Yadkin
11-11-2015, 12:48 PM
Last night I mounted the pressure regulator on the fire wall right above the transmission. Now I have to figure out where to mount the filter. It's a big unit, and I'd like to mount it near the engine. It may have to go in the trunk.

Yadkin
11-11-2015, 09:41 PM
I found a great place to mount the filter, behind the bumper, driver's side, between it's support brackets, bolted directly to the horizontal panel that makes up the "floor" of the engine bay in that area. (If this was the passenger side it would be below the battery tray.)

I've temporarily mounted two 90 degree hose ends to check the fit.

Yadkin
11-19-2015, 09:28 AM
I took the past two days off to complete the job. On Tuesday I completed the installation of the new tank and plumbing, mounted the throttle body and plugged it all in. I turned the fuel pump on, checked everywhere for leaks, the adjusted the regulator for 43psi. I attempted to start the engine, but the engine speed was very high, it was late so I cleaned up and went home.

On Wednesday morning I called tech support and the told me I must have a vacuum leak. So I removed the body, removed the carb spacer, cleaned and re-plumbed the PCV system, found a leaking hose and replaced it, used two new gaskets, tightened it all down, plugged it in, went through the set-up again and turned the key. It started right up.

So I took a 45 minute drive so the unit could learn, then adjusted the throttle plates at idle, then drove it home, engine purring. No gas fumes, no stinky exhaust, no hard staring and long warm-ups. If it dries up today I'll take it out and get the tires balanced, and maybe the wife will ride with me again. :)

On the down side, my fuel level sender is hung-up on the pump bracket, so my nearly full tank reads at 1/4. One more thing to modify...

Yadkin
11-19-2015, 10:42 AM
Here's a picture with the air cleaner installed, looks like stock. A second shows the unit in place of the carburetor. Lots of wires yet to clean up by putting in looms.

The third is the top of the fuel pump bracket, now through a hole in my trunk floor. I used a foam gasket for a garage door to seal it from below.

Wudro
11-19-2015, 11:11 AM
Congratulations on a job well done!

Yadkin
11-23-2015, 09:58 AM
Wiring done, replacing the corrugated sheath with braided. I used braided sheath throughout the car, and the Russell Pro Classic hose matches it nicely.

Although I've never done it before, I put the kit emblem on the dash. I figure that this is such a substantial improvement, and the emblems match the OE fairly well, so I'll give it a try.

simplyconnected
11-23-2015, 09:34 PM
Here's a picture with the air cleaner installed, looks like stock... Lookin' good, and it DOES look like stock. I tell people that and they don't believe it.

I'm anxious to hear what kind of performance increase you get. I figure around 15% or better. - Dave

Yadkin
12-04-2015, 10:33 AM
I'm still getting a rapid blink of the LED on the ECU along with an O2 error and currently working through the issue on the FAST forum. They insisted that I re-do my power and ground wires to connect directly to the battery posts, the stated reason that the battery is the filter between the ECU harness and the alternator/ coil etc.

They also pointed out that the 12v switched connection needs to be a real good circuit.

Yesterday I took off work to tackle this, making a parts list, taking a trip to O's and then doing the install. Here's what this mess looks like now, gone are my neat battery connections and fuses in one box. :rolleyes:

I also re-did the 12v switched circuit. I had been using the old coil wire (I bypassed the stock resistor wire long ago) and found that to have a 0.1v loss. I have an auxiliary wire directly off the ignition switch that only shows a 0.05v loss so used that instead.

I also redid the fuel pump control wiring using the negative side switching from the ECU. That "primes" the system at key-on for a few seconds then turns the pump off if the engine is not running. I pass this signal through my inertia switch as an extra precaution and the circuit works nicely.

After all that I started a new tune, readjusted the idle stop and went for a short drive to fill the tank. I'm still getting the same error indications, and the engine isn't running smoothly at all. It's using a ton of gas and belching CO and other stinky crap from the exhaust. I had both overhead doors open in my basement garage while I was making adjustments and the emissions were so high both CO detectors (1st and second floors) went off in the house. There is no HVAC connection between my garage and the house, and the first and second floor units are independent of each other. That was 16 hours ago and I still have a **** headache. :(

jopizz
12-04-2015, 01:15 PM
I would check your O2 sensor. Even though it's new it could still be bad. You should be able to test it with a voltmeter.

John

simplyconnected
12-05-2015, 12:56 AM
Steve, this is a 'forest for the trees' problem.

All of these devices can be tested using your meter. I'm with John, start with the oxygen sensor. Determine if the heater is getting 12 volts. These are usually the two black wires; one is ground the other is power. Then, put one prod on a solid ground and measure the DATA wire. You should do this with the engine hot because O2 sensors don't work until it gets to ~700 degrees F.

You are looking for a range between +.9 vdc and zero. During normal operation the range should 'hunt' around .45 volts.

If you're getting responses like this, the sensor is good even though you're running rich or lean. The next area to scrutinize is your Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT). This will tell if you have a vacuum leak or possibly another sensor is faulty.

To gain a good understanding of what's going on and how STFT works, CLICK HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WnM_NsOtd8). Watch the video a few times. This will get your troubleshooting juices going and hopefully you will solve your problems. If you have questions let's talk about it. BTW, don't rule out any exhaust leaks. It will make your sensors think the engine is running lean. - Dave

Yadkin
12-05-2015, 12:07 PM
I measured voltage at the O2 sensor connection and found 0 at the orange wire, which is supposed to be 12v power as switched through the harness relay. This same circuit powers all four injectors.

So I started to test for continuity. As you recall I mounted my ECU under the dash, basically above the driver's left leg. I could not find the orange wire in the dash-end of the sensor sheath, so started to undo the sheath, finding the wire cut several inches into it. The other end next to the relay was also cut, but very short as not to be noticeable.

Evidently what had happened was that I had stretched the harness and zip-tied it into place to keep it away from the brake and gas pedals. Somehow I had cut the wire, probably when I trimmed the tie that holds the relay in place. And, when I did that, the remainder of the orange wire retracted itself into the sheath.

The whole thing makes me feel fairly stupid. :o

I repaired the wire and now I'm back on the road.

Once I get this tuned nicely I'm going to re-do the power wiring to utilize my power box as before, and see if that has ANY effect, at all, on the operation.

Yadkin
12-05-2015, 12:20 PM
Next is adjusting the AF ratios for good idle, smooth operation and good economy. My wife is very sensitive to smells, and the garage is in the basement, so I want to keep emissions low, and I think that goes hand-in-hand with good economy anyway.

Through the FAST forum I was given some suggestions and pointed to this link: http://www.safrtool.com/SAFR-AFR-values.asp

I had my settings leaned out to 14.6 idle and cruise, 14 for WOT. I had to increase the ACCEL FUEL to 7 to avoid bogging. Now that I'm actually have a working feedback loop my idle is surging, so I'm going to change the settings, starting at:

Idle 13.6
Cruise 14.1
WOT 12.5

I'll reset the ACCEL FUEL to 0 then adjust it up as needed on my next run. Then I'll incrementally increase the three ratios to achieve my goals.

simplyconnected
12-05-2015, 04:10 PM
Steve, this is a 'forest for the trees' problem.

All of these devices can be tested using your meter. I'm with John, start with the oxygen sensor...

I measured voltage at the O2 sensor connection and found 0 at the orange wire, which is supposed to be 12v power as switched through the harness relay...

Excellent! Sound troubleshooting practices paid off by quickly leading you to the cut wire.

Call those tech guys at FAST and let them know what you found. They (like us) rarely hear when someone finds a solution. - Dave

Yadkin
12-06-2015, 12:40 PM
I've posted my solution on the FAST forum.

Emspilot55
12-08-2015, 09:20 PM
How did you route your hoses from the tank forward?
I am installing the same pickup/pump (found out about it from your thread!) in my '66 that will be using fox harness/computer on '92 460.
BTW, Looks really sweet!

Yadkin
12-09-2015, 02:44 PM
How did you route your hoses from the tank forward?
I am installing the same pickup/pump (found out about it from your thread!) in my '66 that will be using fox harness/computer on '92 460.
BTW, Looks really sweet!

Post 27 is my order list for fittings. I bought a 10' length of hose plus a 3' one just in case. I literally had 3" left of the ten footer and was able to send the 3' back. I initially thought I could cut the hose with a PVC pipe cutter- no deal. I ended up using an abrasive blade cutter.

The factory fuel line is 3/8" steel and is routed from the tank to the engine bay on the driver's side, just inside the rocker panel. The 3/16" brake line runs alongside it. I had replaced both in-kind several months prior. I ran a third steel line, 1/4", for the fuel return, using steel clamps.

Yadkin
01-12-2016, 02:33 PM
Last Saturday I started the car up and it started hard, taking more than a quick turn of the key to fire. I had been working on another issue over several weeks and it was time to do good wash and get all the grease and hand prints off the paint. I left it idling while I washed it, starting with under the hood. All the while it was surging slightly and I was thinking to myself what I needed to do to get a smooth idle.

It turns out that somehow my AF ratio at idle had been changed- with all the stuff going on I must have fiddled with it and forgot. I spent a bit of time experimenting with the best idle quality, changing rpm and AF, not just trying to change the numbers to what they were before but going through the trial and error process, paying careful attention to what the engine liked.

650 rpm seems to be where it's most happy. I went up and down on the AF at idle and settled on 13.6, same as I was at before. 13.7 I get surging and 13.6 I don't. 13.5 it just doesn't seem to run as smooth, I can't really describe it.

stubbie
04-30-2016, 09:11 PM
There is a good conversation going on at the moment on the FE Power Forum about FiTech EFI systems with lots of good info and an EFI parts list if anyone is interested in EFI. Look for the topic "thoughts on FiTech EFI".

Yadkin
08-30-2016, 10:30 AM
As many here know, I've had issues with lifters and such that put the EFI tuning aspect of this project on hold. Now with my internals issues solved I'm back to it. The EFI system isn't living up to its promise of smooth driveability and good fuel economy. The engine runs rough and my mpg is below ten.

Talking with guys on the cpgnation forum, I'm being pointed to replacing the intake manifold with a single plane. In the old school carburetor world, for a cruiser rarely seeing 3500 rpm, this is a terrible choice.

The FAST website for the system that I purchased specifically says NO intake manifold change.

The FAST folks have responded to my emails and told me to try an open spacer under the throttle body. $80 and a week later, I installed this and it made no difference whatsoever.

There are only two single plane intakes available for the FE engine for this configuration. Offenhauser 6148 is advertised as race only. I can't even find a picture of one never mind measurements to check for hood clearance. Summit promises delivery in March 2017. The only place I can find that carries one is a race boat supplier.

That leaves the Edelbrock 2936 "Victor". It is 6.49" tall vs my current setup which is 5.75" with spacers. I've already raised my factory air cleaner up at least 1/2" to clear the taller Pertronix distributor (also required due to this conversion).

I'm disappointed with FAST for advertising NO intake change required. I probably would have stayed with a carburetor had I known, or they may have been able to sell me their more expensive system with 8 injectors mounted on their intake.

jopizz
08-30-2016, 11:34 AM
It must be nice to be able to sell a product without testing it to see if it works. Does FAST have any documentation at all that shows it working on a 390 with the stock manifold. If not then it's false advertising.

John

Yadkin
08-30-2016, 12:15 PM
Obviously they don't. Apparently I am their unpaid test engineer who has to pay them for parts.

pbf777
08-30-2016, 12:32 PM
What manifold are you currently using? Scott.

simplyconnected
08-30-2016, 01:05 PM
I took the past two days off to complete the job. On Tuesday I completed the installation of the new tank and plumbing, mounted the throttle body and plugged it all in. I turned the fuel pump on, checked everywhere for leaks, the adjusted the regulator for 43psi. I attempted to start the engine, but the engine speed was very high, it was late so I cleaned up and went home.

On Wednesday morning I called tech support and the told me I must have a vacuum leak. So I removed the body, removed the carb spacer, cleaned and re-plumbed the PCV system, found a leaking hose and replaced it, used two new gaskets, tightened it all down, plugged it in, went through the set-up again and turned the key. It started right up.

So I took a 45 minute drive so the unit could learn, then adjusted the throttle plates at idle, then drove it home, engine purring. No gas fumes, no stinky exhaust, no hard staring and long warm-ups. If it dries up today I'll take it out and get the tires balanced, and maybe the wife will ride with me again. :)

On the down side, my fuel level sender is hung-up on the pump bracket, so my nearly full tank reads at 1/4. One more thing to modify...This report is very positive, which tells me that your old intake manifold worked just fine. Intake manifolds don't change. BTW, FAST (Fuel Air Spark Technology) has rave reviews from the people at Summit Racing. They are tried, proven and Summit stakes their reputation on them even more than the Edelbrock systems. Summit sells both.
Something may have reverted back to your former problem but I don't know what because we still don't know the root cause of your lifter problems. All the symptoms you mentioned could be due to poor valve performance.

Time to do a vacuum and maybe a compression check. - Dave

pbf777
08-30-2016, 04:59 PM
[QUOTE=simplyconnected;BTW, FAST (Fuel Air Spark Technology) has rave reviews from the people at Summit Racing. They are tried, proven and Summit stakes their reputation on them even more than the Edelbrock systems. Summit sells both. - Dave[/QUOTE]

Dave, as you have "pushed" this vendor previously, you apparently feel your experiences with this vendor have been positive (tech support wise), and I'm happy that they have been. But rest assured, the overall opinion by many, knowledgeable in the subject matter, would indicate differently.

They are a mail-order dumping ground for product, and reasons for pushing certain product over others may have nothing to do with the product itself. Profit, is important to a successful business; but, integrity that may be found in an honest "brick-and-mortar" business who looks the customer in the eye might be better, even if it costs more (reasonable of course); especially with technical materials which often require follow-up assistance to the customer after the sale is involved. If one seeks out the cheapest place to do business, obviously one can't complain about the lack of service or knowledgeable assistance after the sale, and this is what you will get in this mail-order/internet industry.

I realize the each individual will have their own unique experiences; but, in my opinion (& experience), and, as already indicated previously by another who has already reached the limit of their knowledgeable assistance, "this-ain't-the-place" (Summit). Scott.

simplyconnected
08-30-2016, 08:43 PM
Squarebirds.org is a world wide open forum and a gathering place for our members to discuss specific problems and complaints. Our members are free to discuss any specific complaint about a vendor or a purchase. A word of caution though, generalizations and innuendo will only get you in trouble if your reality is not the truth. We have many excellent vendors that our restorers continuously depend on. If you cannot cite specifics, do not disrespect the good names of our suppliers and vendors.

I'm not obligated to defend any vendor nor do I feel compelled since I have no affiliation with any of them. However, there are certain 'parts houses' that rise far above the rest. "Summit Racing Equipment is the world’s largest mail order automotive performance equipment company..." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_Racing_Equipment)Summit sponsors major car shows around the USA (https://autorama.com/)as well as NHRA, ANDRA (http://www.motorsport.com/nhra/news/summit-racing-named-nhra-e-t-drag-racing-series-sponsor/) and NASCAR teams (https://www.summitracing.com/customerservice/about/history). Their customer service AND technical support is second to none. Their new retail superstore opening in Dallas brings the number of RETAIL stores to four. (https://www.summitracing.com/newproductsandmedia/summitracingnews/summit-racing-to-open-new-texas-facility-and-retail-super-store)

Yes, they're that good. If they weren't, Ford Racing and other major brands would not sell parts through Summit.

I googled 'FAST problems' and found something very interesting. Since this is an aftermarket EFI, most installers don't know what they're doing.

One complaint ended with an MSD distributor change because of a spark problem. Another complaint ended when the customer had an alarm installed, grabbing power from the fuel pump relay. Yet another ran his EFI harness too close to the distributor causing electrical noise to jumble the computer. In that instance the FAST was returned to the manufacturer but it was proved to be good. I also found, some problems magically 'fixed themselves' which tells me the installer was too embarrassed to admit his mistakes.

In fairness, how on God's Earth would a tech support guy have answers to these problems? They wouldn't. Bottom line is, if your EFI problems are beyond your capability hire a professional. Sometimes mistakes made are silly-stupid but not to a novice.

If you have a specific problem with a vendor, by all means, post it. So far, Summit Racing AND FAST are reported on our forum to answer ALL tech support calls.

It is up to the owner to make sure other engine components are not causing problems. One way to prove this product is to bolt your carburetor back on since the original intake manifold is used. For testing purposes, gasoline can be dispensed from a bottle hanging from the open hood. - Dave

Yadkin
08-31-2016, 01:48 PM
What manifold are you currently using? Scott. The original.

Yadkin
08-31-2016, 01:51 PM
This report is very positive...

Relative to how it ran before. I'm fine tuning now.

pbf777
08-31-2016, 02:00 PM
I really wish that we could keep with topic (EFI in this case) but, I am forced off-track:

[QUOTE=simplyconnected;103372] A word of caution though, generalizations and innuendo will only get you in trouble if your reality is not the truth. QUOTE.

Do you feel that you are in a position of such authority as to judge or forward "caution" to others, or should one deam this as some sort of threat?

QUOTE: If you cannot cite specifics, do not disrespect the good names of our suppliers and vendors. QUOTE.

First, that was not, nor is, the topic or purpose of this thread; and I can cite specifics all day long & bore the h#ll out of everyone.

Secondly, I do not believe, nor intended, to disrespect anyone. Rather, my intent was to point out that the "mail-order" business model, due to its' pricing strategies, often fails the customer in the after-the-sale support. And, I think the consumer has the responsibility to understand such, and as such, "mail-order" companies feel no guilt, nor should they, as their primary goal and the primary reason for their success is "price-to-your-door"---"free-freight".

QUOTE: I'm not obligated to defend any vendor nor do I feel compelled since I have no affiliation with any of them. However, there are certain 'parts houses' that rise far above the rest. "Summit Racing Equipment is the world’s largest mail order automotive performance equipment company..." Summit sponsors major car shows around the USA as well as NHRA, ANDRA and NASCAR teams. Their customer service AND technical support is second to none. Their new retail superstore opening in Dallas brings the number of RETAIL stores to four. Yes, they're that good. If they weren't, Ford Racing and other major brands would not sell parts through Summit. QUOTE.

All I can say is: Summit should send you a check! And, keep in mind there are many reasons why companies do business amongst one another, not always to the satisfaction of either party.

QUOTE: Since this is an aftermarket EFI, most installers don't know what they're doing.
In fairness, how on God's Earth would a tech support guy have answers to these problems? They wouldn't. Bottom line is, if your EFI problems are beyond your capability hire a professional. QUOTE.

No arguments here! This is why one should consider whether buying from the mail-order sources for a few dollars less (sometimes only as perceived) or from as I described, a so-called "brick-and-mortar" source with (hopefully) one-on-one assistance during and after the sale. And even if one surrenders and chooses to out-source the installation; do you think you'll be better received if you walk in to ones' establishment saying: "I bought all may parts somewhere else (because their cheaper), I only need you to "throw" them on for me", can you help me?, how much?

Also, most communication consists of one or more individuals impressions & opinions (example: please read your statements), the more accurate, generally the more appreciated.

Remember,,,,, we're all friends here! Scott.

P.S. let's discuss T-BIRDS!

Yadkin
08-31-2016, 02:01 PM
I've checked and double-checked wiring and made sure that both the FAST EFI unit and the CDI ignition are wired exactly per their install manuals. Not sure if I mentioned, but I also changed plugs and high tension wires twice- Taylors to replace an elderly set followed by an MSD set because the Taylors didn't fit the plugs well and the terminals kept pulling off. I broke two autolite plugs during this process- the first time in my life that I had ever cracked plugs- so switched to Autocraft, finding them to fit the MSD connectors better than the Autolites.

I'm sure FAST has it in their fine print somewhere that some set-ups can cause problems. It's rather obvious looking at pictures of the intake under open spacers that the flow path is an ugly one. I studied fluid dynamics quite extensively in college so it's obvious to me anyway.

Yadkin
08-31-2016, 05:22 PM
One other thing that points to the manifold as the problem is that I've been getting liquid gas collecting on the base of the air filter. Apparently the flow is so turbulent that a votex is created and droplets are getting back up above the throttle body.

Yadkin
08-31-2016, 08:42 PM
Scott and Dave, let's not go any further discussing a vendor who has nothing to do with this thread. I'm dealing with FAST on this, not Summit. In fact I didn't buy the system from Summit. Thanks! :D

stubbie
09-01-2016, 02:30 AM
All the forums that I have read about FAST EFI they seem to be using the single plane manifold. Have you tried contacting someone else who sells and installs Fast Efi systems? You could try these people and see what they say. http://www.murillomotorsports.com

Dan Leavens
09-01-2016, 10:07 AM
Steve agreed. Let's all stay on topic on this thread:)

pbf777
09-01-2016, 02:17 PM
Concerning your intake manifold: the 180 dual-plane design should prove acceptable, even though it generally demonstrates a greater inherent imbalance of atmosphere delivery cylinder-to-cylinder as compared to that of the typical after-market performance oriented, single-plane design; as your E.F.I. system is of a throttle body type vs. individual runner injection (sequential) w/ eight injectors, one mounted over each inlet port. One can still use the dual-plane style intake with individual runner injection, but, with additional attendance to fuel correction values to correlate with the different air quantities delivered cylinder-to-cylinder. Note that the greater variance in deliver rates as mentioned are not necessarily unintended, the 180 feature is to isolate, based on firing order sequential cylinders drawing from the plenum, coupled with the longer and more isolated, individual runners, many times of different lengths, and for a number of other reasons, this tends to provide a broader torque curve at lower to medium engine revolutions, although may suffer somewhat at higher revolutions.

Acceptable balance (for the time period) is acquired as the fuel is being "mixed" (vaporized to some degree, but not atomized) into the air stream within the plenum area of the intake, and each cylinder draws its' charge from this reservoir. Ideally (though not general achieved), the air-fuel ratio remains constant, but the density will vary cylinder-to-cylinder.

Your concern for reasonable transition from the throttle body to the intake is valid, but a "torturous" path should not create the difficulties as you describe at low speed and idle; but could create horrendous air and fuel distribution at higher velocities. Yes, smoother transitions are generally preferred, if only the rule-out the unknown effects of not.

The fuel accumulation within the air cleaner/filter is generally a byproduct of reversionary forces within the air stream inherent in the poppet-valve, reciprocating engine, carrying fuel out and into the atmosphere above the throttle/venturi, and falling-out/condensing on the available surfaces. This is one (not only) reason many O.E.M. air cleaner enclosures/housings are of a closed design w/ only a "snorkel", often with a sort-of venturi to access the atmosphere. The real question is, is the some you are witnessing excessive? "Can't-tell-a-standing-here"! Many variables at work to create the effect; but, one thought though (maybe useless), what camshaft (specs.) are you using, and was it "dialed-in" at installation? Remember, your "self-learning" E.F.I. is of a "speed-density" sensing unit, and although capable, the greater the reversionary values (pressure change) present within the induction, the greater will be the tuning challenges, as for one, this has a, lets say, deafening effect at minimum, to invalid inputs at worst to the E.C.M.. Also, the other invaluable input is that received from the O2 sensors (Lambda) and this is how the E.C.M. determines the air-fuel ratio, post process. And, reversion present within the induction leads one to be suspect of such within the exhaust, which may also, to some degree corrupt the values perceived.

None of this may mean the E.F.I. unit is not acceptable, but it may not be as self learning as one hoped.

Miscellaneous ramblings that may or may not be useful. Scott.

Yadkin
09-01-2016, 03:50 PM
...

Your concern for reasonable transition from the throttle body to the intake is valid, but a "torturous" path should not create the difficulties as you describe at low speed and idle; but could create horrendous air and fuel distribution at higher velocities. ...

Miscellaneous ramblings that may or may not be useful. Scott.

Scott, this is a TBird site, not Ramblers. ;)

Not a lot of difficulties with idle, just cruise. At 70mph the engine is churning over at about 2600RPM, so that's a lot of air going through that passage.

The new Victor intake is scheduled to arrive late next week. There seems to be a basic consensus among those I've talked to that this should solve the issue.

Now I have the other issues that go along with this to contend with- crankcase gas recirculation, fit of my original air cleaner...

Yadkin
09-01-2016, 05:23 PM
There are several threads on the FAST forum about single plane intakes and the FAST EFI throttle body sytems. Reading through them, the issues are similar if not identical. I'm feeling better and better about this swap.

pbf777
09-02-2016, 12:23 AM
Not at odds with your decision of the Victor intake, and I am very interested in the results (maybe I'll learn something on your dime!).

Beyond solving the transition concerns between throttle body & intake (definitely a plus, and it looks cool to!) what other effects may one actually encounter?

As compared to the existing unit, it presents a 360 "open" plenum and more direct ports shapes (less bends & kinks) all of much greater cross-sectional area & volume. Effect? Typically, the intent would be to increase upper R.P.M. power (well beyond 2600 R.P.M.s & part throttle values), at the expense of the lower R.P.M. values (this is, kind of a racy intake manifold). Well, keep in mind, you are attempting to use E.F.I. vs. a carburetor, and therefore one feels some redemption/salvation at hand, and such is probably true. And this increased area & design will dampen reversion effects somewhat if that were an issue.

The E.F.I. throttle body solves the difficulties of the carburetor, in that one must create reasonable "signal" to the atmosphere below and thru the carb. to draft/siphon fuel into the air stream. But, because it is a T.B.I. system (vs. individual port injection), the manifolds' inlet port values must still contend with the responsibility of maintaining fuel in suspension to the cylinder. Obviously, as the sectional area of the port passages increases, along with the plenum volume where initial mixing (air & fuel) takes place, with a constant in requirement/consumption, a loss in velocity and turbulence is expected. Hence, one may expect an increase in fuel droplet dimension both at initial vaporization intent within the plenum area, and failure to exhibit superior further vaporization and mixing as the air/fuel columns proceed thru the ports en route to the individual cylinders, even perhaps to the point of condensing or "wetting-out" upon the port walls (at lower R.P.M.s), at best only leading to inefficiency. .

Am I implying impending doom, no, and I think you already understand most, if not more, but still, it will be interesting. Scott.

Yadkin
09-02-2016, 10:22 AM
Here's the link to the FAST forum showing current threads.

http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/forums/fast-support-forum.235/

Several threads on throttle body intakes and dual vs single plane intakes. The old rule of dual plane for street, single plane for race, doesn't apply for this situation at all. Guys are seeing more low end torque with the single plane and much better driveability. One noted that his black soot problem (out the tailpipes) was history. That alone is a tell-all of what is occurring with the dual plane. Some cylinders are rich; the single O2 feedback loop is attempting to hit the target, causing other cylinders to be lean. The rich ones are draining the gas tank and dumping unburned fuel out the pipes.

Also, I'm not the only one there complaining about FAST's advertising: "NO intake manifold change".

I also note that the Victor for the FE engine comes in three flavors.


2936 for 4150 style carbs. Or in my case, the FAST EZ EFI 1.0.
2937 for 4500 style carbs.
29365 for throttle bodies. This is the same casting as the 2936, but has 8 injector ports drilled and tapped for a more advanced multi-point or sequential injection system. Obviously, Edelbrock has tested this casting for FI.

pbf777
09-02-2016, 10:07 PM
The bulk of the engineering endeavor encompassing the 180 dual plane intake (as relevant in this discussion) was in order centrally locate (within the the "V") and add in the function of the carburetor.

As I eluded to previously, the "180" design provided "balanced" access by the engines' pumping cycles of the eight cylinders to the carburetor, by isolating bores/venturis to intermittent cylinders in the firing order, this attempting to provide a more rhythmic and balanced draw on the carburetors' fuel metering system, thereby providing better function/control of the mixture values by the carburetor. Note that this is not always ideally achieved, but this was the idea anyway.

But, with E.F.I. you are correct,........ who cares! We don't have any concerns or need of this engineering, as we are mechanically forcing fuel into the air stream at will (as programed).

The "dual-plane" effect is only the mechanical engineering (ducting if you will) required for the 180 access of the eight cylinders, in two separate banks (American V8, left & right), further, dividing two cylinders from each of these two banks, bringing each pair from each bank, pairing with apposing bank cylinders to create four each, and routing to the centrally located carburetor (providing as close to equal distance runners as possible & for compact packaging). Talk about a torturous path! And as stated previously, at times the runners will be of different lengths and sectional area, sometimes not by choice, but other instances intentional by design, for a different effect of creating cylinders which reach peak torque & horsepower values at different R.P.Ms.

Again,...... with E.F.I. you don't need it! Not for the 180 requirement anyway, but you would lose the other function.

Manifold engineering concerns for providing "signal" for reasonable function of the carburetor are nonexistent with E.F.I. yes. But, with the T.B.I. system, this is not what is sometimes referred to as a "dry manifold" system, fuel is still present within the intake runner, and needs "tending to" for best operation. Scott.

Yadkin
09-14-2016, 08:36 PM
The instructions that I read prior to purchase said specifically that this manifold would not fit a TBird. I accepted the challenge.The intake arrived last week and after dry fitting and some careful measuring I had a machinists make some modifications.

1. The oil fill boss was milled to accept my original fill/ vent tube.
2. The throttle linkage flange was lowered and leveled.
3. I used a short piece of 3/8" pipe for the heater hose bypass. I had him turn the exposed portion for better sealing on the short bypass hose.
4. Here's the key here: I had him cut 1/4" off the front of the carburetor flange, bevelling down to 0" at the rear edge.

This last modification leveled the original air filter and gives me 1/2" clearance to the hood.

Here's what it looks like after the modifications and two coats of Ford Engine Black.

Yadkin
09-15-2016, 10:29 PM
Mike block sanded the lettering to make it stand out against the black. I think it looks pretty sharp. Idle quality is better. We finished the job at 5pm, not exactly the best time to take a test drive. Tomorrow we'll see if I have an improvement.

Yadkin
09-15-2016, 10:41 PM
I don't have a good shot of the rear, but I am using the two 3/8" barb fittings on the rear of the throttle body (below the throttle plates) for my vacuum source:

One does my PCV, brake booster and transmission modulator.

The second does my cabin accessories and modulates the fuel pressure regulator.

Yadkin
09-16-2016, 12:59 PM
Results of the test drive went good. Smoother than before- not perfect- but a definite improvement. I was able to increase my AF rations on all three settings. I'm now running 14 at idle, 14.5 at WOT, and 14.7 at cruise.

Here's what it looks like with the air cleaner installed. To the untrained eye, it's fresh from the factory.

Dan Leavens
09-17-2016, 10:23 AM
Steve very nicely done...

pbf777
09-17-2016, 12:17 PM
I was able to increase my AF rations on all three settings. I'm now running 14 at idle, 14.5 at WOT, and 14.7 at cruise.

Just some input from the peanut gallery: as you proceed in your tuning endeavor, always address your starting point with known rich fuel mixtures and known conservative timing values (reasonable of course). Then remove fuel sums progressively for best effect, acquiring what is often termed "Lean-Best-Torque", and add timing in the same fashion. One must be attentive with the process to acquire conclusions as one proceeds, so as to respond (tune) appropriately. Do not get to "hung-up" on the numbers as stated, as they are solely relative to your experience, but can provide a guide (perhaps a wake-up call!).

Keeping my last statement in mind, one is generally of the thought that 14.5 @ W.O.T. would be less than ideal (typically maybe 12.5 range?); and if accurate (and that's the catch!), perhaps even somewhat hazardous to survival of your engine. Remember, draw your own conclusions (perhaps with some guidance, as we all need some), and follow your own intuitions for best results.

Very nice & professional appearance. Scott.

Yadkin
11-30-2016, 03:34 PM
Still tweaking on this car, found a little issue with the fuel pressure regulator and got it mostly fixed.

I got onto I40 the other day on a two-lane ramp and a guy in a Kia "gerbil car" was neck-and-neck with me, so naturally I put my foot to the floor. The transmission never downshifted and I pulled away from him, but without the authority that I expect.

That night I started looking at the throttle linkage and found out that along with my kickdown off, the throttle plates weren't opening up fully. The linkage placement is slightly different with this new intake, and I never made the necessary adjustments. So I readjusted everything, reset a new base tune on the EFI then took it for a test ride.

After warming up I stopped for gas, stepped on it a little bit on my exit and unexpectedly spun the tires. Looks like I may be getting the tune right. When I got to the highway on ramp I put my foot to the floor and got up to 70 in the blink of an eye. Upshifting into third resulted in both back tires chirping.

I've driven V8s my whole life but this is my first performance big block. I'm not happy with the gas mileage but dang it's fun. :D

Joe Johnston
11-30-2016, 04:08 PM
I'm not happy with the gas mileage but dang it's fun.

Gotta pay to play!

Dan Leavens
12-01-2016, 09:26 AM
Joe isn't that the truth:rolleyes:

Yadkin
12-01-2016, 09:57 AM
Gotta pay to play!

At least I know it's all getting burned, along with tire tread. :p

Dan Leavens
12-02-2016, 09:52 AM
Steve; That's for sure.

getting burned, along with tire tread.

Yadkin
02-08-2017, 10:57 PM
A guy on the FAST EFI forum suggested that I use a colder plug. After 400 miles this is what they look like:

Yadkin
02-09-2017, 10:28 AM
The plugs below were running on the initial set-up for AF ratios, which is fairly rich. The FAST forum is saying that these plugs look good based on the side electrode burn, and that I should lean out from 13.5 to 14.6 at cruise to eliminate the soot. I think that makes sense so have another set of plugs on order (I broke two taking them out).