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crowdpleaser
09-27-2015, 08:56 PM
Hey everyone, my name's Chris and I just got my wife a 65 hardtop thunderbird. This is actually the first Ford I've ever owned lol. Anyways, we git the car and we're told it needed a gas tank to be running. The car will fire with starting fluid so I ran new line to the carb with a filter from the fuel pump and a line from the pump to a gas can to see if the car would run. I get no fuel through the line even though it's a new fuel pump. I don't know if the pump is brand new but when I took it off it has no dirt or grease on it so I believe it is new. I'm wondering if there's like a lobe that pushes the arm and it's so warn that it won't push the arm on the pump enough to get fuel. If any of you can give me some advice on what to try I would really appreciate it. Thank you in advance

jopizz
09-27-2015, 09:23 PM
There is a large round eccentric that is on the front of the camshaft and drives the fuel pump. I doubt that is the problem though. I would suspect the fuel pump. Make sure you prime the pump first by pouring gas down the line into it. If that doesn't work then the pump diaphragm is probably bad.

John

YellowRose
09-27-2015, 09:28 PM
Hi Chris, I see that John ~ jopizz is already addressing this problem with you. If you need a new fuel tank, the only one that makes them these days for our old Tbirds is in Canada. You can get one from their website for $201 plus shipping. Or if you can find it cheaper, most of our major Tbird Parts Houses carry them. Look in the Advertisements Forum, and you will find all the Tbird parts houses listed. Email or call them and ask them for their free catalogs. You will need them for parts availability and price checking. The close place to you is probably the Bird House in Delaware.

I will send you a Private Message with the ebay link for the Canadian company. All the Tbird parts houses get their tanks from them, the only (that I know of) company who makes gas tanks these days for our '55-'66 Tbirds.

crowdpleaser
09-27-2015, 09:35 PM
Thank you guys for the quick responses. I will try priming the pump with some gas and see if that helps. I wasn't doing that, I thought it would just pull it out of the can. I guess if that doesn't work I'll buy another fuel pump and see if that's the problem. I'll probably end up buying a gas tank, so I would appreciate the link for a reputable place to buy parts from. The car has been sitting a while

YellowRose
09-27-2015, 09:40 PM
Chris, I just checked the Bird House and they have your gas tank for $2 less than the Canadian company, $199 vice $201. And, it will not have to be shipped from Canada, just from Delaware. The guys at the Bird House really know their stuff and they also have parts cars that they can pull used parts off of. If that gas tank has been on that car from the beginning, or for many years, the best thing you can do is to put a new one on, IMHO. I and others have been down the road of having them cleaned out, only to have more problems crop up. I did that to mine, only to have it leak again. So off came that tank and one went a new one. There are some other parts you might need, like a new neck, seal, but the guys at Bird House can tell you that. The link to the Bird House can be found in the upper right corner of this Forum.

https://store.bobsbirdhouse.com/tank-gas-from-3-28-64---64-66-t-bird-new-p74.aspx

jopizz
09-27-2015, 09:41 PM
Rockauto.com usually has the lowest price on gas tanks. Plus there is a 5% discount available. Use this code on checkout. A49FE9710A4758

John

YellowRose
09-27-2015, 09:46 PM
John is right! Rock Auto has them for $155.89 plus the 5% discount. Rock Auto is a member of our Forum, and nearly the only one who gives us a discount. Sooo there is a savings for ya!

Related PartsFuel Inlet GasketFuel System Repair ManualFuel Tank Selector ValveFuel Tank Sending UnitFuel Tank Strap
FORD 1965 THUNDERBIRD 7.0L 427cid V8 Fuel/Air Fuel Tank
SPECTRA PREMIUM / COOLING DEPOT F37B {#C4SZ9002B} Lock Ring Kit Included
37-3/8 In. x 15-1/4 In. x 14-1/2 In. $155.89

crowdpleaser
09-27-2015, 09:51 PM
That's awesome. Have you guys ordered from them before, because I heard people say that rock auto sold parts that didn't fit well and had a bad return policy, but I've never ordered from them myself before

jopizz
09-27-2015, 09:54 PM
I've ordered many things from them and never had a problem returning anything. The gas tanks are only made by one company as Ray mentioned. I've replaced a number of them and they all fit like the factory ones.

John

crowdpleaser
09-27-2015, 09:57 PM
Well that's good to hear,I will definitely be ordering from them then

crowdpleaser
09-27-2015, 10:23 PM
Also I see the airtex fuel pump, is this a decent fuel pump to get. I'm just wondering because it seems like a cheap price

YellowRose
09-27-2015, 10:26 PM
Chris, I gather your oil dipstick must be missing, from your PM. I tried to send you a picture of the 390ci engine for a '65 Flairbird. Here it is and you can see where the black oil dip stick and tube should be on it. If you don't see the dip stick, you should certainly see the tube that it slides into right there by the left corner of the gold valve cover.. IF you are missing the dip stick, you can get it from one of the Tbird parts house, probably Rock Auto also...

jopizz
09-27-2015, 10:28 PM
That's a pretty common fuel pump so they're not that expensive. Airtex is probably as good as any other brand. I've used the Carter pump also and it seems ok.

John

crowdpleaser
09-27-2015, 10:39 PM
Yeah I'm pretty sure it's missing the dipstick, so no more trying to start it until I get that put in. Does anyone have a pic of where the dipstick tube goes in to the engine

YellowRose
09-27-2015, 10:43 PM
Chris, can't you see the picture that I posted of the engine? The dipstick is black and sticking out of the tube by the left corner of the gold valve cover.. You certainly should be seeing the picture that I posted in my 9:26pm post.

Bob's Bird House has them new for $21.

https://store.bobsbirdhouse.com/dipstick-oil--65-t-bird-new-p295.aspx

crowdpleaser
09-27-2015, 10:50 PM
Yeah I can see the dipstick in your pic, but my car doesn't even have a tube there so I was wondering where it goes into the engine at. so I know where it goes when I buy a dipstick

YellowRose
09-27-2015, 11:03 PM
Wow! You sure that is a 390 engine in that engine bay? If it is a 428ci engine, I think the dip stick and tube is still in the same location, but jopizz or simplyconnected can probably verify that. If there is no oil tube where it is at in the pic, then I don't know where it would be, but they might.

crowdpleaser
09-27-2015, 11:09 PM
I'm assuming it's a 390, that's what it says on the air cleaner lol. I honestly wouldn't know if it wasn't, but it looks original. I just think it's missing the dipstick and tube. My bay looks a little different from the pic because of mine having the a/c compressor being in the way, but that doesn't affect where the dipstick should be, right

jopizz
09-27-2015, 11:11 PM
The dipstick tube goes in next to the oil filter housing. You should be able to see the hole that it goes into. It just pushes in and there's a bracket that bolts it to the front of the head to hold it in place.

John

crowdpleaser
09-27-2015, 11:14 PM
I'll double check that in the morning and let you guys know. Thank you guys so much for the help, sorry for the dumb questions

jopizz
09-27-2015, 11:18 PM
Here's the parts diagram that should give you an idea how it goes. With the compressor in place it will look a little different.

John

crowdpleaser
09-27-2015, 11:21 PM
That's awesome, thank you so much

YellowRose
09-27-2015, 11:28 PM
The 428 engine was not used in the '65 Flairbirds, not til the '66 came out. So since yours says it is a 390, it probably is. There are those out there who have probably replaced a 390 in their '65 with a 428 if one was available. But it sounds like you do have a 390. The question is where is the oil dip stick tube? I can't imagine someone taking it off! It is probably there, minus the dipstick.. Looking at it in the light, or with a flashlight should show you were the tube is, or is not...

JJbird
09-28-2015, 03:57 AM
I have a 65 with a/c and i have to use a flashlight to find the dipstick tube. It is a very tight fit and you have get dipstick in just the right position for it to go down the hole. I can see how it could be difficult to find tube if the stick was missing or if someone shoved it down the wrong place

If the fuel pump goes in real easy it might be in the wrong place on the lobe ( eccentric). Most of the time you have tap the starter around to get in the right place.

If you have to replace your fuel tank make to check the end of your fill tube pipe for rust and your gas gauge float

YellowRose
09-28-2015, 04:06 AM
J.J., thanks for that post! That might help him find that tube. The tube might be there, but the dipstick, maybe not. I don't know where anyone would put that dipstick but in the tube though! It may be that someone pulled the dipstick out and forgot to slide it back down the tube.

Also, Chris, if you replace the gas tank you might also want to replace the sending unit that goes inside the gas tank. The one should be inside the old tank may have been there forever, may have gas inside the float, like mine did, or have problems reading properly. So it makes sense to buy a new sending unit along with the tank, rather than transfer what could be an old sending unit with problems into a new tank.

crowdpleaser
09-28-2015, 08:23 AM
Yeah, I would definitely replace the sending unit with the tank when I get one. Thanks for all the advice, I'll check after work today and see if I can find that tube or dipstick. It was getting pretty late last night and I might have just been looking right past it

Yadkin
09-28-2015, 08:55 AM
Hey everyone, my name's Chris and I just got my wife a 65 hardtop thunderbird. This is actually the first Ford I've ever owned lol. Anyways, we git the car and we're told it needed a gas tank to be running. The car will fire with starting fluid so I ran new line to the carb with a filter from the fuel pump and a line from the pump to a gas can to see if the car would run. I get no fuel through the line even though it's a new fuel pump. I don't know if the pump is brand new but when I took it off it has no dirt or grease on it so I believe it is new. I'm wondering if there's like a lobe that pushes the arm and it's so warn that it won't push the arm on the pump enough to get fuel. If any of you can give me some advice on what to try I would really appreciate it. Thank you in advance

I've purchased four fuel pumps in the last two years for this engine family. Two didn't pump at all, one worked for about ten hours of engine operation and one works fine (at least no call-back, yet). All were Airtec pumps from O'Reilly's, so I suggest that you avoid those.

In my car, I ended up installing an electric pump close to the tank. Here's the thread that details my problem and final solution:

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18840&highlight=pump&page=2

crowdpleaser
09-28-2015, 03:16 PM
Thanks for the warning yadkin. Do you think the Carter fuel pump is any better quality

jopizz
09-28-2015, 03:22 PM
I ordered a Carter for my '66 a few months ago and it seemed fine. I've since sold the car so I can't say if it is still working. I would just order the Carter since it is cheaper anyway.

John

crowdpleaser
09-28-2015, 06:04 PM
well i went and looked for the dipstick in between showers here and learned that its missing, yay! i had to take a pic with the flash on just to see behind the oil filter. let me know if this is where the dipstick tube should behttp://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo36/chris_baker13/1965%20thunderbird/20150928_164555_zps6zimcmrt.jpg (http://s359.photobucket.com/user/chris_baker13/media/1965%20thunderbird/20150928_164555_zps6zimcmrt.jpg.html)

jopizz
09-28-2015, 06:19 PM
Yep, that's where it should be. I can't tell if part of the old tube is still in there and broken off. I hope not. You'll just have to try a new tube and see if it fits.

John

crowdpleaser
09-28-2015, 06:27 PM
i couldn't tell either if there was still a piece in there or not. hope not. also here's a few pics my wife took of the car on the trailer when we got it home.

YellowRose
09-28-2015, 07:28 PM
Chris, please go into your Photobucket account and change your settings on your pix to 800x600 pixels. Your pix are a bit over the limit allowed for this Forum. Thank you.

crowdpleaser
09-28-2015, 07:30 PM
Okay, sorry about that.

YellowRose
09-28-2015, 07:46 PM
Chris, you might consider contacting the previous owner and asking him what happened to the dipstick and the tubing it should be sticking into, to see what he has to say about that...

Yadkin
09-28-2015, 08:32 PM
Thanks for the warning yadkin. Do you think the Carter fuel pump is any better quality

No clue here. Carter's been around a long time, but product names are bought and sold like currency these days and lots of stuff is made in China. Look at the casting carefully when you get it, the edges and numbers are tells. And above all, bench test it before you put it in.

There are plenty of youtube videos showing how to put one in and get the lever correctly installed on the cam, so spend a few minutes looking at those as well. It's the same basic setup as the small block Ford family (289-302-351W).

crowdpleaser
09-29-2015, 07:14 PM
got the fuel pump and dipstick ordered and should be here before the weekend, i'll let yall know how it goes

crowdpleaser
10-04-2015, 07:33 PM
got to work on the car for just a little bit today. installed the dipstick and new fuel pump. got the car to half way start. it would want to run as long as i was starting it and then would instantly die as soon as i quit holding the key in the crank position. i believe it is a wiring problem because there are some questionable wires going places that i'm going to have to double check. also while working on the car i noticed that the block is stamped c6me, so i guess it's not the original motor but one from a 66. i plan on trying to measure the stroke next weekend and seeing if its a 390 or 428 i've got. thats pretty much all for this weekend let me know if there is anything else i should check regarding the starting or what motor i have. thanks in advance

simplyconnected
10-05-2015, 02:16 AM
I think we can help each other out. I don't have a '65 but I'm looking at the electrical diagram for one. It's basically like all the other Ford examples EXCEPT I do not see a ballast resistor or resistance wire feeding your coil.

Let's start at the Key Switch... A Black with Green stripe starts at there and continues to a junction block, probably at the firewall. On the engine bay side, that black/grn wire connects to a Brown wire. The Brown wire goes to your Starter Solenoid and the blk/grn continues to the coil (+) side.

Ok, you said when you crank the engine it fires. That is because the brown wire gets power directly from the battery at the Starter Solenoid, and it jumpers power up through the coil's blk/grn wire from that junction block.

Your job is to track down the black/green wire from that junction block to the Key Switch. Maybe the junction block is corroded or one of the wires fell off going to the Key Sw.

Now some background... The solenoid (brown) wire was there since before 1958, to bring full battery voltage directly to the coil, during the voltage drop, when the starter motor is running. It also bypassed the ballast resistor until the key was released. Your car has no ballast resistor so you don't need the brown wire because your Key Switch delivers full battery voltage.

Look at the bottom of your coil and see if it says,'internal resistor'. That would explain away the ballast resistor or resistance wire. - Dave

crowdpleaser
10-05-2015, 10:09 AM
Thanks for the info Dave. I was looking at a simple wiring diagram in the shop manual and it has the wire from the coil going to the I post on the starter solenoid and then another wire from the I post going to the ignition. Is this wire to the ignition the black and green stripe wire I've got to find because right now I only have the wire from the coil going to the I post. It is like the po tried to wire it up but might have missed that black and green wire

jopizz
10-05-2015, 10:21 AM
According to the '65 wiring diagram in the TRL there should be a red/green wire on the coil + terminal that goes into a pink resistance wire and then to the ignition switch. There is a brown wire that gets connected to the red/green wire that then goes to the solenoid.

John

crowdpleaser
10-05-2015, 10:45 AM
One of my problems though is that the po has just regular black wires going to everything so the colors aren't correct. So I'm just trying to figure out where to run everything to. Right now the wire from the + side of the coil is run to the I post on the starter relay, but not to the ignition. Should I run a wire from the I post to the ignition? I'll probably end up redoing the wiring that he's done once I know where everything should go. I've got the shop manual and wiring manual for the car but it's just a little harder without having the correct color wires to know where everything should be going

jopizz
10-05-2015, 11:00 AM
You need to run a wire from the coil to the ignition switch but there needs to be a resistance wire in between. If you look under the steering column you should see the pink wire. It's pretty obvious to see if it's still there.

John

crowdpleaser
10-05-2015, 12:42 PM
I took some pictures if the ignition on the car at lunch, I'll post them tonight after work and hopefully you guys can help me figure out what I'm missing

jopizz
10-05-2015, 01:10 PM
If the wiring has been replaced there's probably not much we're going to be able to tell you by pictures. You're going to have to use a voltmeter and see if you have 6 volts at the coil with the key in the ON position. If you don't then you are going to have to either trace the wires from the ignition switch out or replace them and put a resistance wire or coil resistor in the circuit.

John

crowdpleaser
10-05-2015, 01:21 PM
The wires look to be right on the back of the ignition but it looks like he replaced the coil and wires to it and spliced in a wire on the ignition and ran it to the s post on the starter relay for some reason.

jopizz
10-05-2015, 02:54 PM
If you can find the pink wire under the dash then there should be a bullet connector where it goes to the red/green wire that goes into the bulkhead connector. If that is still in place then look on the engine side of the connector for the red/green wire. It should be in the same wiring harness as the oil pressure switch wire.

John

crowdpleaser
10-05-2015, 02:58 PM
Yes,I could see the pink wire and the red/green wire on the ignition. I didn't have much time to look at lunch to find the bullet connector to the red/green wire but it didn't look to have been modified at all. So I can find the red/green wire in the engine bay and run it to the + terminal on the coil and then run a wire from the + terminal on the coil to the I post on the starter relay and I should be good, correct

jopizz
10-05-2015, 03:04 PM
That is correct. If you find the red/green wire I would check for voltage with the key on. It should be around 6 volts. There's usually a reason why it was disconnected. The bulkhead connectors are known to overheat and melt and the wires get toasted.

John

crowdpleaser
10-05-2015, 05:48 PM
i went and looked in the engine compartment and all of the factory wiring is there. they weren't hooked to anything. so this weekend i'm going to volt test them and see if they are all bad or not. i can't imagine why they were unhooked unless they're all bad

simplyconnected
10-06-2015, 01:24 AM
John is right on again. I looked at the Key Switch on the electrical diagram but found no Pink resistance wire. YEP, it's there, just as John correctly pointed out.

This time it is an extension wire with bullet connections on each end. So, the pink wire doesn't go to the Key Sw. Instead, it plugs into the red/grn wire that IS connected to your Key Sw. The other end plugs into the firewall junction block.

I see Mac'sautoparts.com has one for ten bucks + (in case you want to keep your car 'pure stock'.
You have an alternative. 1959 Thunderbirds used a separate firewall-mounted ballast resistor that rockauto.com sells for a few bucks. It works equally as well. If you go with the ballast resistor, you can eliminate the resistance wire and plug right into the resistor with standard wire, then out of the resistor to the coil using 1/4" stab connectors. - Dave

crowdpleaser
10-06-2015, 07:20 AM
Thanks for letting me know that I have options to fix this. I hope the wiring is good and I won't have to rewire it but you never know. I'm not worried about keeping it pure stock. The cars already been painted at least twice and has a different motor in it

crowdpleaser
10-06-2015, 09:33 AM
Also, if I do have to run another wire what gauge wire should I be using

jopizz
10-06-2015, 11:06 AM
I'm pretty sure the original wire is 16 gauge. I wouldn't use anything lighter than that.

John

crowdpleaser
10-06-2015, 12:05 PM
Alright, thanks for all your help John and Dave. You guys know everything about these cars! Another dumb question, but what's the trl you said you found the wiring diagram in. I don't know what that stands for

YellowRose
10-06-2015, 12:21 PM
Chris, since neither John or Dave are on the Forum at the moment, I will answer your question. Sometimes we take things for granted when we use short titles, such as TRL. TRL stands for Technical Resource Library. That was created by me, with the help of many of the people on here who have added to it over the years, with their expert knowledge of this old Birds of ours. The idea was to put as much of the technical information regarding how to troubleshoot, repair and restore these old Birds into one location instead of having to search for it. We realize that our Search engine with vBulletin has problems. So some years ago, I created the TRL, and have kept adding to it as new information is provided to me by our members and other information that I get.

It can be found above the Little Birds Forum, but the easiest and fastest way to get to it is the link that both jopizz and I created on our signature elements. That link shows up on every post we make! So all you have to do is to click on that link and it will take you to the TRL. Once there, our fantastic webmaster Dave ~ simplyconnected, added a search feature to it, where you just push the Ctrl button and the letter "F" to find what you are looking for. In the bottom left side of the screen you just type in some words. Like wiring diagrams, for example, to find all those for our Tbirds. So check it out, but be prepared to spend a lot of time looking at it, because it is pretty extensive! But often times, when you are looking for some help in troubleshooting, you will find it right there in the TRL.

BTW, there is no such thing as a dumb question on this Forum... People ask questions because they don't know and we are here to help you and help educate you about your Bird!

crowdpleaser
10-06-2015, 12:25 PM
Oh wow, there's everything in there. I can't believe I didn't see it sooner lol. Now I know where to go look first when I have another question, thank you!

crowdpleaser
10-09-2015, 07:33 PM
Tried to test my wiring tonight and can't seem to figure it out. I get 12 volts at the yellow wire on the ignition but when I turn the key to on I get no power going out of the red/green wire to the + side if the coil. If I understand what y'all tell me I should get 6 volts going to the coil when the key is on but I get nothing going out to the coil. Does this mean the ignition is bad? let me know what I should check next

crowdpleaser
10-11-2015, 08:18 PM
I replaced the ignition switch and now I get 6 volts at the coil and 12 when cranking. There was nothing wrong with the factory wiring so I don't know why the po didn't use it. On to the next problem

simplyconnected
10-11-2015, 10:56 PM
You can see how heavy duty the Key Switch is. As such, it's unusual for it to go 'bad'. Somehow yours did. Look closely at the connectors and inside the switch. I don't want this to happen again to the most important circuit in your car.

I'm glad you got it going but that is only part of this story. - Dave

crowdpleaser
10-13-2015, 08:56 PM
got another problem for you guys. my idler/tensioner pulley is pretty well seized up. its the one that goes over the alternator for the a/c. im wondering if i can replace the bearing in it or the pulley on it? if so, can anyone point me in the right direction for what parts to use. i really appreciate all of your guys help

Yadkin
10-14-2015, 09:43 AM
Press out the bearing, measure the outside dimension, inside dimension, and width. Find one online that matches and press it in.

crowdpleaser
10-15-2015, 08:47 AM
That's what I was hoping I could do. also I'm redoing all the coolant/heater hoses amd was wondering if I could bypass the carb spacer. Will it cause any problems not running the coolant through it?

jopizz
10-15-2015, 10:43 AM
It won't cause any problems if you bypass the spacer. Ford stopped using it in 1966 so it probably wasn't that effective anyway.

John

crowdpleaser
10-15-2015, 10:50 AM
Alright, that's good to hear. I've never had a car with that on it before, was it supposed to help warm the intake on cold days or something?

jopizz
10-15-2015, 11:16 AM
I believe it was to prevent carburetor icing on cold days. How well it worked I'm not sure. I have heard instances where it leaked and caused engine damage so it's probably better to bypass it or replace it with a solid spacer with just a pcv port.

John

Yadkin
10-15-2015, 12:18 PM
Alright, that's good to hear. I've never had a car with that on it before, was it supposed to help warm the intake on cold days or something?

The intake is heated by internal ports that are open to one exhaust port on either side. I forget which cylinders are involved in this, I'm thinking #4 and #5. Cylinder 4 pushes some portion of exhaust through a circuit in the manifold to #5, then #5 pushes back to #4. This heats the manifold to a high temperature and helps to increase fuel vaporization. Aftermarket performance manifolds don't have this circuit, as they aim to keep the manifold cool to increase charge density. I've re-used my original manifold, use "performance" manifold gaskets and stainless steel plates to block off this circuit.

I think that the coolant passage in the carb spacer is to keep the carb cool because of the heated manifold feature. It also helps to keep the fuel from boiling in the carb bowl after the engine is shut down and that aluminum carb absorbs the heat from the iron manifold. Water carries away heat even though it's not flowing at that point.

jopizz
10-15-2015, 12:33 PM
I think that the coolant passage in the carb spacer is to keep the carb cool because of the heated manifold feature. It also helps to keep the fuel from boiling in the carb bowl after the engine is shut down and that aluminum carb absorbs the heat from the iron manifold. Water carries away heat even though it's not flowing at that point.

I've researched this on a number of Galaxie, Mustang and FE forums and I've never read anything that says it helps keep the fuel from boiling. Everything I've read indicates that it is for cold weather starting and performance. If you can find something directly from Ford that says what it does I'd love to see it. I haven't found anything yet.

John

Yadkin
10-15-2015, 01:54 PM
Maybe "you can find something directly from Ford" disputing my post, which is based partly on the same thing yours is, 'what I read on forums', but more so based on my engineering education and knowledge of heat transfer.

And no, I haven't done any calculations or experiments to prove this.

jopizz
10-15-2015, 02:06 PM
Regardless of whether your explanation or mine is correct the fact that Ford went back to the bakelite spacer without the water jacket in 1966 means it probably didn't do what it was intended to do.

John

simplyconnected
10-15-2015, 02:14 PM
Gentlemen... Let's agree that coolant flow helps regulate heat.

I never liked the exhaust crossflow scheme. Yes. it works and it is very fast BUT once the engine is up to temp, that exhaust manifold valve better work or your radiator will have extra work to do.

I block off the exhaust as well, then I gut the heat riser valve with a torch so it is absolutely clear inside but the outside looks stock.

Gasohol has a lower boiling point than gasoline and cast iron relentlessly holds heat. Since we don't have a Carter Thermoquad (like Chrysler used through the '70s) Ford depends on coolant flow.

Do 430 MEL engines have the crossflow intake? I know they do not have a heat riser valve. Then, coolant might be used both to heat the intake then to regulate the temp. - Dave

Yadkin
10-15-2015, 04:30 PM
Dave, what's a heat riser valve?

jopizz
10-15-2015, 05:20 PM
Some people call it a heat riser, some call it an exhaust control valve.

John

Yadkin
10-15-2015, 07:55 PM
Yeah I've seen those before, on the exist to a "log" type exhaust manifold. What is it for if not to rob performance?

simplyconnected
10-16-2015, 03:17 AM
All the car manufacturers used heat riser valves. This is the apparatus that controls the exhaust gasses that flow through the intake manifold. It does it a few ways:

The butterfly axle is offset so more exhaust pressure will open the valve.

That spring-looking thing on the outside normally keeps the valve closed when cold. It is actually a bi-metal strip that relaxes as it gets hot. When totally relaxed, the valve automatically opens. - Dave

Joe Johnston
10-16-2015, 07:43 AM
Make sure you don't install upside down!!! Engine will idle and run at low speeds with no problems at all, but the exhaust flow at higher rpm will force it closed causing very poor performance and anextremely hot manifold! (Been there and done that :eek:)

crowdpleaser
10-21-2015, 09:26 AM
Well it seems I caused a bit of a fuss over the carb spacer lol. I'm going to bypass it for now and see how things go, plus it was very corroded so I doubt it was working as well as it should anyways. I have another question. My gas pedal came off because the rubber holes that hold it to the floor had ripped and stretched apart. I was going to buy a new one but they're like 50 bucks and I noticed the ones for the older tbirds were only like 15. are the bolt holes the same on the older pedal so I can just use one of them. This is definitely not a concours restoration I'm doing here so not concerned about it being "correct" just if they will work. Thanks

crowdpleaser
10-27-2015, 10:10 AM
I went ahead and ordered the older gas pedal and I'll let you guys know how it works in case anyone else is interested. On to my next issue. I put the car on stands to see if the transmission works and it went through the fears okay but when I tried to stop it I had no brakes. The pedal was very hard and suck to the floor after pushing them and still didn't stop the wheels turning. So I've ordered a new master cylinder, the same dual raybestos one that rusty used on his car. I also want to replace the brake booster but Rock auto is out of every one for my car. I saw a post where Dave said the 67 booster is the same as mine and they have that one in stock for 70 plus 40 core charge. Can anyone confirm that's correct before I order it, otherwise O'Reilly has one for my car for 130 plus 35 core. I pretty much ordered everything under the brake section of rock auto for my car. Is there anything else I should make sure I replace while doing this over haul, I'd rather do it right the first time. Thank you
Chris

simplyconnected
10-27-2015, 10:32 AM
Replace your THREE brake hoses.
Wheel cylinders are cheap enough and you only need two rear (left and right).
I don't know if you work on calipers. I do, and I buy the rebuild kits as they are very inexpensive AND I get a chance to look behind the piston to see exactly what's going on.
Buy a quart of DOT-3 brake fluid.
Always a good idea to get two grease seals, too.

crowdpleaser
10-27-2015, 10:49 AM
I forgot about the grease seals, I'll have to get those. I ordered two brake hoses for the front, what's the third one? I ordered new wheel cylinders and return and hold down springs and the adjuster parts for the rear but not anything for the front. I've never worked on a caliper before, is there anything I should know before taking that on

jopizz
10-27-2015, 11:10 AM
According to the Ford parts book the '67 booster is different from the '65-66. The picture that Rock Auto shows looks like a Bendix booster. Normally '65-66's had a Midland booster. It's difficult to tell from the picture if the bolt pattern is the same. That would be my main concern.

John

crowdpleaser
10-27-2015, 11:28 AM
That's my concern too, I guess I'll just get the O'Reilly one. Don't need any more problems than I already have lol. When installing the dual master cylinder I understand that the bigger reservoir goes to the front brakes and the smaller for the rear, is there anything else I need to make sure I do for it to work properly

jopizz
10-27-2015, 12:02 PM
What are you going to use for a proportioning valve. The valve that you have now is for a single master cylinder. With a dual master cylinder you will probably need a different one. Any disc/drum proportioning valve should work. It doesn't matter if it's Ford or GM.

John

crowdpleaser
10-27-2015, 12:14 PM
I didn't think about that,I guess I thought since I already had disc/drum setup that I wouldn't need a new one. I'll have to start looking for one of those too then. Thank you for looking out for me and let me know of anything else I might have over looked

simplyconnected
10-27-2015, 01:05 PM
I run into this all the time with Rockauto, in fact I spoke with their tech guys about it.

I have a Galaxie which is an identical body with the Fairlane. Many times they list a part for the Fairlane but not the Galaxie. I'm talking about common parts like brake hoses, shoes, drums, etc. I called to inform Rockauto that certain parts fit both cars. They said, "Oh, no. We rely on the manufacturer to tell US if a part fits or not and we cannot simply change because a customer says so." OK. Now back to you.

I looked up a 1966 Thunderbird booster, clicked on the INFO button, then clicked on "SEE ALL THE VEHICLES THIS PART FITS". This is straight from the horse's mouth, A1Cardone, and NOT Rockauto.

Part Number: 54-73534 Vehicles This Part Fits
Make Ford
Model Thunderbird
Year 1966-1965

Make sense? Here's another one for you... I'm looking for a fuel tank for a 1970 LTD. NONE are shown in the catalog under ANY engine. BUT... If I search for D0AZ9002B, Ford's part number, it comes right up and at a very attractive price. Am I sure this is the correct part? Brian Wheeler just bought one and installed it in his 1970 Ford LTD. It's a Spectra tank and a perfect fit.

Calipers... Like many rebuilt parts, the auto parts stores guarantee them to work or you get another. That's not for me. I want to SEE the castings or brushes, or whatever BEFORE I install. If water gets behind the piston in a caliper it can rust and pit the bore. A new gasket might be good for the warranty period but I expect better, so I rebuild my own calipers. This can be dangerous if safety precautions aren't in place. Basically, put a piece of wood in front of the piston and keep your hands clear of any pinch points as you apply compressed air to the hose port. The piston is usually 2.5" diameter so it doubles 100psi air pressure into more than 490 pounds of force. Once the piston is out an empty cavity remains in the casting. The rebuild kit contains a square 'O' ring and a bellows dust boot. That's all there is to it. I use brake fluid and fine sand paper to recondition any ridges left behind by the old rubber.

If you're not set up to do this work, let the pro's sell you a rebuilt caliper.

Edit: John is right. If you have a dual-piston M/C, you will need a combination proportioning valve with two inlet ports. - Dave

crowdpleaser
10-27-2015, 02:15 PM
Thanks for the advice Dave, I'm going to start getting the manufacturer number for what fits my car before going to rock auto now. I think I might try rebuilding the calipers. I want to be as thorough and have as much involvement in getting the car on the road as possible that way when something goes wrong I'll have a better understanding why and what to do to fix it in the future.

crowdpleaser
10-27-2015, 06:21 PM
would this prop valve work
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Factory-Proportioning-Valve-Ford-Bronco/161642189116?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D33432%26meid%3D987c38434f3f49e2a3c97fb04c4b 6383%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D3504 69397402
and im guessing i get rid of the one thats on my car now for this one. is there anything else i would need to do for the dual mc? is there anything i have to adjust for this valve or just hook it up and it does everything out of the box

jopizz
10-27-2015, 08:19 PM
They are basically all the same. This one is a little cheaper and will work just as well. Just connect the output hoses from the M/C to the correct inlet ports and your brake lines to the correct outlet ports. Just make note of the port sizes. You will have to use different size lines and fittings on some of the ports and an adapter or two. Remove the old valve. You won't need it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-1981-Chevrolet-Camaro-Pontiac-Firebird-Brass-Brake-Proportioning-Valve-/141560612002?hash=item20f5ab84a2:m:mUCwukhlKiRWmRk pXrUkp1g&vxp=mtr

John

simplyconnected
10-28-2015, 08:03 AM
All the lines are 3/16" tubing. We use the same tubing for modern metric brake line as well.
All the fittings will be either 3/8"-20 or 7/16"-20 IFF (inverted flare fittings) with a 3/16" hole. These are common sizes, available at nearly all auto parts stores.

You will buy the male ends, we call '3/8" IFF nuts or 7/16" IFF nuts' Manufacturers used different size ports so the guy on the assembly line could not put the wrong nut in the wrong port. The following picture shows 3/8" brass IFF nuts with adapters in all the ports:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1960%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_3193copy_zps6f2abec2.jpg

You can have a guy cut, bend and flare your lines but I urge you to do it yourself because it is easy. Do your entire car because your lines have been rusting from the inside for the past fifty years as evidenced by the color of your existing brake fluid.

All new brake fluid comes water-clear in color. DOT-3 is glycol-based, not petroleum based, so keep all oil and gasoline far away from your brake system. Glycol sucks up water very quickly until it saturates so it starts out as a rust inhibitor but after saturation it promotes rust. DOT-3 should be changed every few years. Your whole system holds about a pint.

If you need any practice bending lines use the old lines. They will be removed and discarded anyway. I normally start at the rear axle because those lines and the hose are easy access, short and they make good patterns for your new lines. Stiff wire works as well but after making a few you won't need any more than a tube cutter, pair of brake line pliers (http://www.harborfreight.com/tube-bending-pliers-95782.html), flaring tool and maybe a tape measure. I also use a small drill bit to ensure the inside of my flares are burr-free. I use a 'trick' for measuring pipe... A 3/16" flare takes up ~1/4" to make. I cut off two old ends at a specific length, let's say (2" minus 1/4" for the flare = 1-3/4") but I call it 'two inches'. Then I screw them into the fittings and measure the distance between them, adding four inches. Or if the end has a bend at the end (this is where those pliers shine), you put the nut on, cut and flare the end, slide the nut to the end and butt the pliers right up to the nut. Now, measure from the back of your new bend to the length you are going. The bend will be perfect, sharp and close to the end. A word of caution... When you find these pliers at Harbor Freight, close the handles and look at the pipe opening. Make sure both jaws align or are very close (you will see right away).
These lines were bent using just those pliers:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1960%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_6828_zps10792396.jpg

Notice that all components are MOUNTED first, then piped. Marcelo did this job at his house. He also used conifer brake line which never rusts because we live in the Rust Belt. - Dave

crowdpleaser
10-28-2015, 12:05 PM
Thanks for that Dave! I went and read through marcelos entire thread. It was very helpful. I'm definitely going to be running my own lines. doesn't look too hard and I won't have to worry about 50 year old lines causing me problems

crowdpleaser
10-28-2015, 12:07 PM
And when it says rear port on mc is that the smaller one for the drums

simplyconnected
10-28-2015, 12:23 PM
Smaller? Your entire brake system was served with one 3/16" tube coming out of your M/C. Now that you have two, didn't that just double the capacity?

Yes, the large 9/16" line goes to the rear brakes. (You only have one line going to the rear brakes.) - Dave

crowdpleaser
10-28-2015, 12:29 PM
I'm sorry I meant the smaller front reservoir on the dual master cylinder I ordered. It has a smaller front reservoir and a larger rear one. It's the same one rusty used on his car. I was just asking so I don't plumb it backwards into the proportioning valve. From what I've read the smaller reservoir is for the drum brakes and the larger for the disc up front.

jopizz
10-28-2015, 12:31 PM
The larger reservoir is always for the front discs. As the pads wear the pistons get pushed farther out and there needs to be more fluid in reserve.

John

simplyconnected
10-28-2015, 04:56 PM
Calipers typically have pistons that are 2.5" diameter on each side. If you wore your pads down 1/8" (.125") on both sides (X2) you would need an extra 1-1/4 cubic inch of brake fluid. Of course your brakes wear down much more than 1/8".

crowdpleaser
11-01-2015, 06:32 PM
Took off my master cylinder and brake booster and the booster was full of brake fluid. Also the brake pedal assembly was all rusted up and barely moved. So I took it apart to paint everything and grease all the joints up

simplyconnected
11-02-2015, 07:52 AM
You are going to love your new brakes. BTW, did you buy the third brake hose?

Yes, I'm with John... The larger reservoir serves the front disk brakes. Marcelo is using a 'Corvette-style' M/C with equal size reservoirs (because Corvette had four-wheel disk brakes). So, with that M/C it doesn't matter which side is the front.

I'm glad you found your problem. Someone was feeding a lot of brake fluid to fill the booster. If the level got to the vacuum hose port, white smoke would come out the exhaust at times and the brake pedal would be hard. - Dave

crowdpleaser
11-02-2015, 08:03 AM
Yes I did order the third brake hose for the rear. Also when I removed the booster there was a power steering hose that had rubbed the bottom of the booster and rubbed through so I'm replacing that as well. It ran to a hard line on the firewall and then out to what looks like a cooler in the engine bay. Is there a cooler for the power steering? I only ask because after some of the stuff I've seen on this car I doubt that anything is routed correctly

Yadkin
11-02-2015, 08:10 AM
No OE cooler in the power steering circuit that I know of. Do you have a hydraulic wiper motor as well?

crowdpleaser
11-02-2015, 08:27 AM
Honestly I don't know if I have a hydraulic wiper motor. I've kind of been fixing things one section at a time and haven't gotten to the wipers yet. I can post a pic tonight of the cooler I'm talking about

jopizz
11-02-2015, 10:56 AM
You should have a hydraulic wiper motor under the cowl. It's fed from the power steering pump through the hoses that run along the driver side shock tower and under the booster. There is no cooler as Yadkin mentioned.

John

crowdpleaser
11-02-2015, 06:58 PM
heres the only pic of the cooler i have.its to the right of the ac compressor
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo36/chris_baker13/1965%20thunderbird/18da8652-506e-494d-bcd5-c5c58bb0ee35_zpsdh7i5ncv.jpg (http://s359.photobucket.com/user/chris_baker13/media/1965%20thunderbird/18da8652-506e-494d-bcd5-c5c58bb0ee35_zpsdh7i5ncv.jpg.html)
one side is ran to the firewall where the power steering goes in and the other side was never hooked to anything

jopizz
11-02-2015, 07:04 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would need to cool the power steering fluid but just remove it and hook the lines up the way the factory intended.

John

simplyconnected
11-02-2015, 07:31 PM
Could that cooler be for the transmission? Check your radiator for two hard lines. If they aren't there, that could be your cooler.

Joe Johnston
11-02-2015, 07:53 PM
Many cars ran small finned coolers like that for PS fluid. Perhaps this was an "improvement" a PO thought it needed??

crowdpleaser
11-02-2015, 08:24 PM
I have both of the hard lines for the transmission that run into the radiator. This was hooked up to one side of the firewall where I guess the wiper motor gets fluid from

Yadkin
11-02-2015, 11:48 PM
Looks like a previous owner put a cooler in the.power steering line. It's not needed.

Yadkin
11-02-2015, 11:54 PM
Check your hoses and lines. The pump high pressure goes to the steering box, then the wiper motor. Both lines should be high quality, factory made sets as sold by several vendors, or made up by a specialist. The return from the wiper motor to the pump can be made with fuel line type hose and hose clamps.

crowdpleaser
11-04-2015, 09:01 AM
Alright, so now my issue is that on the proportioning valve the rear outlet that goes to the drum brakes is bigger than all of the other outlets. I think the rear is 9/16 but I only bought 3/16 line because I thought that was what the whole car used.the only adapter I found was from 3/16 female up to 9/16 male. Not the other way around which I need

simplyconnected
11-04-2015, 09:35 AM
http://sauarebirds.org/Brakes/GMstylePropValve2.pngAll the lines are 3/16" tubing. We use the same tubing for modern metric brake line as well.
All the fittings will be either 3/8"-24 or 7/16"-24 IFF (inverted flare fittings) with a 3/16" hole. These are common sizes, available at nearly all auto parts stores.

You will buy the male ends, we call '3/8" IFF nuts or 7/16" IFF nuts' Manufacturers used different size ports so the guy on the assembly line could not put the wrong nut in the wrong port. The following picture shows 3/8" brass IFF nuts with adapters in all the ports:
http://squarebirds.org/Brakes/GMstylePropValve2.jpg...

So... you need adapters. Yes, the rear port on a GM-type combination valve is 9/16". Like the picture shows, you need a 9/16" to 3/8" IFF adapter (bushing). They still take 3/16" brake line. For the top ports, I simply use 7/16"-24 IFF nuts (for 3/16" tube) that your auto parts store should have. If they don't, I think I have a few in steel.

Off the top of my head I can't remember (imagine that) if the 9/16" port is a tapered pipe or IFF. Look down the hole. If it has a cone at the bottom it is IFF.
IF IT DOES have a cone: You need a 9/16" IFF MALE to 3/8" IFF FEMALE adapter. Let me know. - Dave

Edit: I see O'Reilly's has them:http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/EDE0/258303/N1415.oap?ck=Search_N1415_-1_-1&pt=N1415&ppt=C0267

crowdpleaser
11-04-2015, 10:03 AM
I didn't see where it listed the adapters I would need in the pic, sorry. Thanks again for the help. And the 9/16 does have a cone in the bottom of it

simplyconnected
11-04-2015, 11:13 AM
If you click on the link the adapter should come right up. O'Reilly's Part # 258303.


Edelmann - Hydraulic Brake Fitting

Line: EDE | Part # 258303
1 year limited warranty
UPC: 21597604563
Adapter-Standard To Dual Master Cylinder - 3/16 Inch Tube - 3/8-24 Female Inverted Flare Seat x 9/16-20 Male Inverted Flare
Thread Size End 1: 3/8-24 Inch
Thread Size End 2: 9/16-20 Inch
Line Size (In): 3/16 Inch

Detailed Description:
Adapter-Standard To Dual Master Cylinder - 3/16" Tube - 3/8-24 Female Inverted Flare Seat x 9/16-20 Male Inverted Flare

crowdpleaser
11-04-2015, 06:04 PM
thanks for finding that for me. im gonna go by there tomorrow and get all the adapters

simplyconnected
11-04-2015, 06:32 PM
The 7/16"-24 IFF nut is the hard one to find. All the auto parts stores have them mounted on pre-length 3/16" tubing so I would think they also carry just the nut. NOPE. They have adapters instead.

One good size store I frequent had two... in steel. I have re-used my old ones in the past. - Dave

crowdpleaser
11-04-2015, 09:39 PM
https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/440249-131280
Is this the right one, because it doesn't say -24 on it. I have a fastenal right down the road from work

simplyconnected
11-05-2015, 02:05 PM
I was cruising eBay when I ran across this...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-16-24-Inverted-Flare-Red-Zinc-Tube-Nut-Fitting-3-16-Brake-Line-Tubing-6pc-TN06-/181897939488?hash=item2a59f64a20:g:HasAAOSwKsRWF9r Q&vxp=mtr
The price is right at a buck each.

crowdpleaser
11-05-2015, 04:25 PM
Thanks, if I can't get them locally I'll be ordering those

crowdpleaser
11-09-2015, 10:03 AM
Found all brass adapters at Napa. Went to four other auto parts stores and they had nothing. Didn't get to work on the car this weekend though because of weather and family plans. I think I've got all the parts though to redo my whole brake system now

crowdpleaser
11-11-2015, 09:58 PM
Also wanted to let you guys know that I ordered the power brake booster for a 67 thunderbird and it is identical to the one that came off my car and cost 60 bucks less than the one rock auto had listed for the 65. Mine had the bendix booster, so if anyone else with the bendix needs a replacement they can save a little money by getting the 67