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GeoffInCarlsbad
09-19-2015, 01:04 AM
I am looking for some photos or advice on removing a Rear Quarter PW switch. The window is stuck in the UP position, and I don't hear to motor engaging. Before I start removing the interior rear quarter panel, I want to check the switch connections, maybe spray a little contact spray on there....if that doesn't work, then checking the circuit breaker, and so on....but let's start with the switch.

Is there any special tool required? Does it "twist off" or "pop off"? Shop Manual is not clear on this.

jopizz
09-19-2015, 11:00 AM
To correctly remove the switch you need to remove the trim panel. You can try prying it out but I wouldn't recommend it. If it doesn't work from the switch on the door either then it's probably not the rear switch.

John

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-19-2015, 11:12 AM
Ok, that's what I was afraid of. I'll post pics today and see how I make out! :D

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-19-2015, 08:09 PM
Ok, For anyone who wants to know how to go through this, here is what I did:

I removed the Rear Quarter Trim Panel to expose the switch and all connections.

http://s11.postimg.org/jxawvalbj/Removal_of_trim_panel_1_with_comments.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/jxawvalbj/)

I then used a test light to see if I am getting any current.

http://s12.postimg.org/7kxzy6c95/Testing_Switches_Green_is_Good.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/7kxzy6c95/)

http://s12.postimg.org/kdm3y3nux/Testing_Switches_Yellow_is_Up_OK.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/kdm3y3nux/)

I tested from both switches and I get voltage just fine all the way to the motor. I did a second check using a meter, and it was 12v and ample, so I am guessing my motor is shot.

I followed all the instructions in the shop manual as well, but the one thing I didn't find (and I check the opposite side) was the 15A ground circuit breaker. I checked under the mats and followed all the harnesses back to the dash....Can someone tell me where those circuit breakers on the ground are supposed to be?

It's on the wiring diagram....

jopizz
09-19-2015, 08:37 PM
The circuit breakers should be under the back seat. They get bolted to the floor. It's on the black ground wire. That looks like it in your top picture.

John

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-19-2015, 11:31 PM
HI John:

I never imagined them being bolted to the floor! I thought that was just the ground for the black wire. Ok, thanks for pointing that out.:mad:

However, since I am getting voltage to the motor, I am assuming that the motor is still the culprit. If the circuit breaker was bad, I wouldn't see a signal, correct?

~g:cool:

jopizz
09-20-2015, 01:01 AM
Where are you grounding your test light. If you are grounding it directly to the black wire then the circuit breaker is good and the motor is most likely bad. If you are grounding it to the car body then the circuit breaker could still be bad. Ground your test light directly to the lug where the black wire is connected.

John

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-20-2015, 11:45 AM
Where are you grounding your test light. If you are grounding it directly to the black wire then the circuit breaker is good and the motor is most likely bad. If you are grounding it to the car body then the circuit breaker could still be bad. Ground your test light directly to the lug where the black wire is connected.

John

I am going to do that RIGHT NOW! I'll update shortly. That is a great suggestion!

Follow-up: It's the motor...I even tried tapping it a little bit with a rubber mallet....no love....so....I'll see if I can find a thread if someone has done this, but when I searched earlier, nothing...and of course the shop manual says "replace motor" but not how....but I love this!:cool::cool::eek::eek::cool::cool:

jopizz
09-20-2015, 12:47 PM
Here's the link to the article in the Technical Resource Library on rebuilding window motors. Even though it explains how to rebuild a 1960 motor the 1961-3 motors are similar.

http://squarebirds.org/images_motor-power-window/index2.htm

John

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-20-2015, 02:38 PM
Yes, If I can get it out today, I'll do the rebuild myself. I will put the car back together so we can drive it in the mean time though! Don't want it out of action!

simplyconnected
09-20-2015, 04:43 PM
Are you familiar with how DC shunt motors work? Ford energizes ONE FIELD (red OR yellow) and the ARMATURE (green) at the same time. If both field coils are energized, the magnetism they produce negates each other and the motor doesn't move (in case kids press one button 'UP' and the other 'DN' at the same time.

http://squarebirds.org/images_motor-power-window/17_PWMotorSchematic.jpg

If you are disassembling a motor and the case hangs, I suggest you grind the small rivets off on the cord-end. This should help to save the micarta brush holder. - Dave

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-20-2015, 05:26 PM
my initial problem is just getting the motor out. I cannot gain access to the mounting nuts at the top of the motor. I can get to one, but there is no way for me to get to the other nor to the mounting bracket as described in the manual.

I must be missing something somewhere. The frame panels are spot welded so I cannot get access to the top of the motor.

http://s9.postimg.org/c73o6hc8r/Shop_Manual_PW_Motor_Removal.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/c73o6hc8r/)


Below is a picture of the motor, but the mounting nuts at the top of the unit are inaccessible. I did get the top-closest to the back nut off, but there is another on the other side I cannot get anything to.

Also, at the bottom of the unit are two nuts covered by the rubber sheathing that is all over the unit. I cannot loosen those either.

How do I get this thing off?

http://s21.postimg.org/d631x0e1f/Rear_Window_Motor_with_comments.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/d631x0e1f/)

jopizz
09-20-2015, 08:39 PM
I know on Squarebirds you have to use a small open end 3/8" wrench to get some of the nuts off. Even then it's a pain. I don't remember if Bulletbirds are the same way but I imagine so. I know I've taken them out without removing the regulator.

John

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-21-2015, 12:51 AM
I did find a thread, but I am not sure the difference on a 61 between the motor and the regulator.

It's just the mounting nuts are in behind a flange on quarter rear that I cannot get a wrench in there...I don't know how they did this.

Hmmm..well, I have a source in Escondido I'm going to ask tomorrow. I would like to try to repair the motor if I can.

simplyconnected
09-21-2015, 06:38 PM
There is a learning curve involved but think of this job as an assembly line task.
First of all it's got to be fast and it must be done right. Assembly line people get one minute per car before the next one is upon them.

If you can't get the motor out by itself, pull the regulator out so you can get to the motor.

The window rollers have a 'hair pin' clip holding them in. Pull the pins out and the regulator will fall out of the window tracks.

Upon re-installing, slide the re-assembled rollers back in the tracks then push the regulator pins back into the rollers.

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-26-2015, 01:39 PM
Per my post, I have to remove my power window motor, as it does not seem to be working. I have diagnosed this all the way from the switches and 15A circuit breaker, confirming the power is getting to the motor in the Up & Down Switch modes. Green Wire is live, and Red & Yellow act accordingly. Ensured by grounding to the circuit breaker.

I post pictures below to point out the required bolts removed. I had to also disengage the vertical slide because the window stuck in the UP position, binds and does not allow the regulator enough freedom to access the mounting nuts atop the motor.

I carefully lowered the window down. I will proceed to clean up and re-grease the regulator, and try to repair the motor, though it's probably easier to just buy a re-manufactured one from one of the many parts catalogs.

I can re-assemble the vehicle if I want to drive her around, but I will probably leave it open for now until I figure out what to do with the motor.

Hopefully the figures in the shop manual will be enough for re-assembly, plus I took a dozen pics...

See pics below:

http://s7.postimg.org/jptfwpw13/Rear_Window_Motor_with_comments.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/jptfwpw13/)

http://s7.postimg.org/l7ew8a0rr/Regulator_Removal_UP_Window.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/l7ew8a0rr/)

http://s7.postimg.org/8eqs8cp5z/Lowered_Regulator.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/8eqs8cp5z/)

http://s7.postimg.org/nd972s487/Motor_Regulator.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/nd972s487/)

jopizz
09-26-2015, 01:47 PM
I would also check the lining in the rear channel. Usually it disintegrates and you are left with just metal against the window.

John

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-26-2015, 03:03 PM
I would also check the lining in the rear channel. Usually it disintegrates and you are left with just metal against the window.

John

Yes. Good idea. I opened up the motor, tried to clean it up and reassemble but I am not having any luck. Looks like a "new" motor is in next week's order.

simplyconnected
09-26-2015, 03:49 PM
Yes. Good idea. I opened up the motor, tried to clean it up and reassemble but I am not having any luck...Do you have broken parts? Could you take pictures of the dis-assembled motor and post them?

All electrical components (two field windings and the armature) can be checked with a meter. You can see from the inside, all black wires are soldered to a common pad. Put your meter on 200-ohm scale, hold one prod on that pad and with the other prod check the yellow wire, then the red wire. An open field winding is a 'deal breaker' but a broken wire can be replaced.

What do the commutator segments look like? - Dave

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-26-2015, 03:54 PM
I have a 12v/15Amax Power Supply from an old computer. I rigged up two 12v lives and a ground wire (to black). I used a bullet connector on each to simulate the harness. I put Black to Black, one 12v to Green and then touched either the Yellow OR Red connector with an alligator clip. I measured the voltage (11.75) so I know I was getting power to each. The motor doesn't move in either direction. Actually it started to get hot, so I hope I didn't over power the amperage, but the max on the power supply is 15A, so it SHOULDNT have;

I did open up the motor, and it looks ok, need some cleaning, put it back together an still nothing.....It's little different than what is published in the tech library. The wiring is not as exposed. I did notice what looks like a clip hanging and not connected....I tried to take a picture of it.

http://s29.postimg.org/p1ucngdub/12v_hookup.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/p1ucngdub/) http://s29.postimg.org/r7onhyhar/Motor_Unpacked.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/r7onhyhar/) http://s29.postimg.org/bweuhcjyr/Wiring.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/bweuhcjyr/)

simplyconnected
09-27-2015, 01:03 AM
The last picture shows brushes but I don't see them in their holders. - Dave

GeoffInCarlsbad
09-27-2015, 01:13 AM
HI Dave:

the brushes are attached to the inside of the cylinder by rivets. I cannot remove them.

http://s18.postimg.org/e0ixqk591/Are_these_the_brushes.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/e0ixqk591/)

simplyconnected
09-27-2015, 01:52 AM
Yes, I understand...
In a SHUNT DC 4-wire motor, one brush is connected to black (ground) and the other brush is fed from the green wire.

In a SERIES DC 3-wire motor, one brush is connected to black (ground) and the other brush is connected to both field windings.

I see the brass-colored brushes dangling in your last picture but they are not in holders. Let's just say that you didn't take a picture of the brushes before you put the motor together.

Did you take resistance measurements of the fields and armature before closing it up? You may just have a dirt problem. - Dave

GeoffInCarlsbad
10-02-2015, 12:02 AM
I don't have any new pics to post, as you can see most of what I will talk about in the pictures already provided. Also, I apologize in advance if my terminology is not quite correct.

http://s10.postimg.org/rkm0ig4jp/Regulator_Removal_UP_Window.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/rkm0ig4jp/)

I ordered a new motor from a local catalog. I sometimes use a local guy and/or 3 or 4 other catalogs that all had the motor for the same money. I just wasn't smart enough to try to repair the old motor. I originally tried the larger front door motor, which I was told would work, but I could not get it to fit properly into the body cavity, and I did not want to mess with the integrity of the area. Therefore, I opted for the correctly sized motor. Personal choice.

As a prep, I plugged in the motor and tried it from the door switch. Worked fine in both directions.

Step 1: was to put the Regulator back in place. I manually wound the gear to bring the swing arm on the regulator to about mid-level. I also had removed the vertical slide. I put the regulator back into the body cavity, and aligned the window-roller into its groove at the bottom of the window.

I had my wife hold the window in place for me, as I needed 2 hands to manipulate the regulator.

Step 2: Attach the motor to the regulator. The motor I ordered had bushings inserted into the bolt holes, and those bushings did not fit into the regulator mount; so I simply removed them, and re-inserted the mounting bolts. The mounting nuts were not 3/8", but 6mm. But that's neither here nor there. I got it on and tightened them down properly.


Step 3: I put the outward facing (short end) roller into the window groove. and pushed the regulator into position (done it Step 1 but it slid out). I put the vertical slide into place after inserting the roller into it. It was much easier doing that then trying to put that roller into the slide already attached to the body. It went much easier once I figured that out.

Step 4: . I inserted the top-left bolt first, and then the bottom right to get everything properly aligned.

Step 5: After tightening everything by hand, I tested the window and lo and behold, up she went, then down, then back up, then back down. That was using the door switch.

My hands were too dirty and it was hot in the garage, so I will put the trim back on tomorrow during the day, and test the trim switch. It should work fine, and now I have a nice, working power window.

This took awhile. I don't know how those line workers did it in less than 90 seconds! I took me 90 minutes to figure it all out!

Next Day:

I hooked the motor up to the rear switch and it works great. Re-installed all the trim, etc. Good as now.