PDA

View Full Version : engine id and cam selection


hunty
06-06-2014, 10:39 AM
hi guys my 59 is getting a respray and while the engines out I want to give it a bit of a freshen up. my problem is my engine should be a 430 mel but somewhere along the lines it ended up with a 352 fe.
now im not fussed in that regard as there are tons more aftermarket parts for the fe, but I need to know if its early or late, hydraulic or not, so I can order bits for it.
I also would like to know what would a good cam be, it will be running headers its still got the autolite 4100 on a standard manifold. id like a little lumpy idle but I still want it to behave.
any help would be great
thanks andrew

YellowRose
06-06-2014, 11:09 AM
Andrew, if you will post some pix of the numbers and stampings on the engine so that we can help you identify it. With that information, someone one here should be able to tell you when it was made.

simplyconnected
06-06-2014, 12:34 PM
A good indication is the casting numbers. They will tell you what year the castings were made because FE castings went through so many changes. Look at the intake manifold and heads. Let us know what they show. - Dave

hunty
06-06-2014, 10:50 PM
Cheers guys I'll have to wait till Tuesday because it's in the painters at the moment, where would the engine number be on these

YellowRose
06-07-2014, 04:36 AM
Andrew, this link might help you find the locations on the block or manifolds where the engine number stampings are found. After you find them on the block, write them down and tell us what you found. The guys here can decode them for you. Here is that link.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15071&highlight=engine+casting+numbers

Click on the various links in the above link and that should give you even more information. Hopefully, this will help you.

hunty
06-11-2014, 08:40 AM
hi all, ok so I finally got down to shop to take pics of engine
aren't all FE's supposed have 352 stamped on the front, because I can't find that anywhere, anyway here they are
first pic is of the manifold
next two are of the engine

simplyconnected
06-11-2014, 04:28 PM
C0AE denotes a 1960 part. (C is the decade and zero is the year.)
When you look straight at the front of the engine block, you should find '352' cast just below the driver's side head.

I said it that way because this can become confusing to many, orientation is ALWAYS done with respect to the driver. This is the way your manuals are written. So as he looks forward, the driver's side is the LEFT HAND side. Ford numbers their cylinders from the RH side (1,2,3,4) then continues down the LH side (5,6,7,8). Your engine rotates counter-clockwise because the top of the fan moves from the RH fender toward the LH fender.

hunty
06-11-2014, 10:13 PM
C0AE denotes a 1960 part. (C is the decade and zero is the year.)
When you look straight at the front of the engine block, you should find '352' cast just below the driver's side head.

I said it that way because this can become confusing to many, orientation is ALWAYS done with respect to the driver. This is the way your manuals are written. So as he looks forward, the driver's side is the LEFT HAND side. Ford numbers their cylinders from the RH side (1,2,3,4) then continues down the LH side (5,6,7,8). Your engine rotates counter-clockwise because the top of the fan moves from the RH fender toward the LH fender.
Thanks mate, yes I was looking at the drivers side for the 352 stamp, but there isn't one, at least that I can see.
I probably should've also said the last pic is of the passenger side behind the alternator

hunty
06-12-2014, 05:45 AM
ok looked at the engine, again lol there is definitely no "352" stamped on the drivers side.
on the passenger side on the block is stamped
5750603
34C:2
22
in that order.
so according to all the posts the 430's and 352's have these stamped in the same place,
does that and the fact that it doesn't have the 352 stamp make it a 430? now I'm well and truly confused
thanks for all the help without this forum id be stuffed

scumdog
06-12-2014, 06:15 AM
Just post a piccy of the whole motor!

simplyconnected
06-12-2014, 07:17 AM
Put your crank at Top Dead Center. Pull out #1 & #4 spark plugs.

I use a welding rod, but you can use anything long, skinny and straight, like a coat hanger.

Stick it down #1 spark plug hole. (It won't go far because that piston is up.) Now mark the rod using a marker at the lip of the valve cover. Don't worry, it doesn't need to be exact, but close.

Now pull it out and send the same rod down #4. Mark it the same way you did before. Now measure the distance between your marks. That's the stroke.

Here's the breakdown:
Displacement........Bore.......................... Stroke

332 cu in (5.4 L) ..4.000 in (101.6 mm).. 3.300 in (83.8 mm)
352 cu in (5.8 L).. 4.002 in (101.7 mm).. 3.500 in (88.9 mm)
390 cu in (6.4 L).. 4.052 in (102.9 mm) ..3.784 in (96.1 mm)
430 cu in (7.05L)..4.30 in (109.2 mm) ... 3.7 in (94 mm)

There is about 1/4" difference between engine strokes. Your marks should be close enough to identify your engine.

A popular swap is to upgrade from a 352 to a 390. All the parts are interchangeable (except pistons), Ford put the 390 in all of their cars and trucks, and it shares the same crankshaft as the 427. The advantage is a larger bore by 50 thousandths but a longer stroke by .284" which is huge. Think of the crankshaft as a lever. The same piston pressure will develop much more HP pressing on a longer lever. The 390 has a longer stroke than the 430. 390 parts are more available and much less costly.

Examine your firing order:
1542
6378

Andrew, you know each piston fires every OTHER revolution, but look...
When #1 us up, so is #6. While #1 is on its power stroke, #6 is on its exhaust stroke.
Think about that for a minute because on the next revolution, when #6 is at TDC, so is #1 but on its exhaust stroke.

Modern cars (and Harley Davidson's) fire both spark plugs at once. In fact they are wired in series, so Ford could eliminate a rotating dizzy. One wire comes from the coil and feeds #1 spark plug while #6 spark plug is screwed into the same block, sending return power back up its high tension wire to the other end of the same coil winding.

Ok so look at the firing order again;
1/4 turn passed TDC, #5 fires on top while #3 is also on top but in its exhaust stroke.
1/2 turn passed TDC, #4 fires on top while #7 is also on top but in its exhaust stroke.
3/4 turn passed TDC, #2 fires on top while #8 is also on top but in its exhaust stroke.
On the next revolution, the roles reverse. (6 fires while 1 is in its exhaust stroke...)
By timeing the valves to open and close in time with the crank, the cam is the controller of all this.
If you want the engine to run in reverse (like twin marine engines), simply grind one cam in the reverse firing order, and switch the field wires in the starter motor.
Many good mechanics spend their entire careers fixing cars without thinking of how this actually works. - Dave

hunty
06-16-2014, 07:31 AM
thanks for all the help, according to the numbers it is a 352 fe.
all that doesn't matter though because I have a leaking block :(
so I need to find another block now :mad:
its leaking coolant out of the side of the block, not the welsh plugs unfortunately its been double checked, and the mechanic is a mate so isn't B.S.ing me ....ah well I think its 390 time:D

simplyconnected
06-16-2014, 07:42 AM
How big is the leak? If it's small, you can drill a hole through the block and tap it, then screw a tapered pipe plug in. If it's a long crack, forget it.

In the old days, folks used to tap all those core plug holes and put iron pipe plugs in. The sheet metal stampings were a cheap substitute that everyone started using. Ford still drilled the holes then pounded core plugs in.

If you are keen on getting a 390 that may be a blessing in disguise because those engines have far more parts available and they are more reasonably priced (because of supply and demand). - Dave

hunty
06-16-2014, 08:33 AM
its kind of weeping but it is a long crack:( my mate thinks it may be fixable but I don't know if I want to spend all that money and then have it fail.
I was thinking of going down the 390 route anyway so yes it may have been a blessing in disguise, even if it may be a pricey one :rolleyes:

RBT2013
06-16-2014, 11:08 PM
I am dumbfounded. I bought a 1958 Tbird and have done a lot of work to restore it. Car was running great but now that I am almost finished it will not start anymore. Eventhouh the car was running I have gone back to the basics and checked plugs, spark, distributor, points.. checked timing, firing order ... nothing. I dont think its carburator as it will not fireup using starting fluid. The weird thing is that in looking for firing order and TDC info I come to find out that TDC and rotor firing position do not match my motor and what is supposed to be according to diagrams I see where TDC should line up with #1 cyl distributor position and #6 for exaust. On my Tbird TDC for #1 cyl lines up with pos #2 for power and #8 for exaust. Is it possible this is not a 352 engine which for what I told is the original to the car? Firing order matches a 352 engine and is correct in the sence that the car was running. I hope this makes send i just dont know how to ask the question any other way.

simplyconnected
06-17-2014, 01:10 AM
Your Squarebird came with either a MEL 430 or an FE engine. These are easy to distinguish by looking at the heads. On an FE engine, the intake manifold goes into the heads by about 1/3. In fact, the lifters are directly below pushrod holes in the intake manifold, not in the heads. Of course, you cannot see this without removing the valve cover.

From the outside, you can see where the FE intake manifold meets the head, and how the valve cover extends into the intake manifold. You could say they 'overlap'.

430s and FEs (352) have the same firing order: (1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8). <--This is not a 351 firing order.

I would like to know more history of your engine but I really don't need it. Go through this procedure:
Remove the driver's side (LH) valve cover.
Rotate the engine until you see #6 exhaust valve close and the intake valve just start to open. Right then, when the two rocker arms are dead level, look at your timing marks. You should see TDC. If you do not see TDC, your cam is mistimed from the crankshaft.

If you do see TDC, at this point #1 is on its power stroke. Remove the distributor cap.
The rotor should be pointed directly at #1 tower when the points just open. #1 spark plug tower should be in front of #6 cylinder. If this is not true, reposition your distributer by lifting it up and moving the gear.

Pay attention to when the points open. That is when you get spark. If the rotor is between towers, the spark may go to the wrong spark plug.

All the above information needs to be followed to the letter. If the distributer does not easily drop into position, hand crank it while pushing down on the distributor. When the oil pump driveshaft aligns with the distributor hex, the distributor will drop right in place. Bolt it down.

If you have troubles with spark, pull the coil wire off, pull another spark plug wire off, put them together with a spare spark plug on the end, laying on metal. When you crank the engine, you should see a pretty blue spark jumping across the spark plug. If it's orange and weak, get a new coil, and make sure the - lead on your coil goes to the points. - Dave

BTW, I have removed your other copy of the identical post in Anything Goes.

hunty
06-17-2014, 02:01 AM
I am dumbfounded. I bought a 1958 Tbird and have done a lot of work to restore it. Car was running great but now that I am almost finished it will not start anymore. Eventhouh the car was running I have gone back to the basics and checked plugs, spark, distributor, points.. checked timing, firing order ... nothing. I dont think its carburator as it will not fireup using starting fluid. The weird thing is that in looking for firing order and TDC info I come to find out that TDC and rotor firing position do not match my motor and what is supposed to be according to diagrams I see where TDC should line up with #1 cyl distributor position and #6 for exaust. On my Tbird TDC for #1 cyl lines up with pos #2 for power and #8 for exaust. Is it possible this is not a 352 engine which for what I told is the original to the car? Firing order matches a 352 engine and is correct in the sence that the car was running. I hope this makes send i just dont know how to ask the question any other way.
I had the exact same thing happen, after replacing the whole ingnition system it turned out to be the condenser( small silver can in your dizzy). I replaced it and it ran great.
Oh and I still had spark which was why it was the last thing we tried, it just wasn't enough to make it run:rolleyes:

YellowRose
06-17-2014, 02:12 AM
Thanks, Andrew! I have passed this on to Robert in case this is what is causing his problem. It bears checking out.

RBT2013
06-17-2014, 11:07 AM
Thank you Andrew I will definitely try that today. I will replace the condenser. I am still confused and will ask the same question a bit differently making use of this picture which is what I have been using as a reference to confirm the firing order and rotor position for my 352 engine. Rotor position is the same for other Ford engines including the 390 and 351. The #1 plug wire goes to the tower located one position before the clip holding the distributor cam in place. This is not true in my case my #1 cylinder wire goes to the #2 tower position and then every other wire in the same firing order. To confirm If I set my engine to TDC power the rotor points to the #2 and then to the #8 in the next rotation. This is the way my engine had been running perfectly for the last yr. I was driving it , lost power and gradually hard a hard time starting until now which will not start at all. Reason I am confused is because even if my chain or distributor slipped , why is my engine #1 wire routed differently. Only reason I can think of maybe someone installed the distributor one tooth off ? . I am afraid to start messing around with removing distributor and putting everything per this image which I am not sure if its for my engine in the first place. I do believe I have the 352 engine as I am sure its the original motor to the car and its an H code per the VIN. Thank you for all your help.

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/ford_tuneup54-59V8.htm

simplyconnected
06-17-2014, 12:21 PM
Robert, I gave you detailed instructions on how to:

Determine which engine you have,


Determine if you have a healthy spark,


Where timing locations should be for the cam, crank, where #1 tower is on your distributor cap and where it should be pointing.

Here is a picture of your distributor cap denoting #1 tower:
http://htsmall.macsautoparts.com/assets/macs/images/size/600x/sku/64-29511.jpg

They mold this number into the cap because that is where #1 is for all FE engines. It did not change on millions of engines, and yours is no different. All of these instructions follow your Ford Service Manual.

If you feel uncomfortable making it conform to these specifications, by all means, let a qualified mechanic adjust the distributor. Moving your spark plug wires to different towers only screws up the rotor inside. - Dave

RBT2013
06-17-2014, 03:03 PM
Hunty and simplyconnected. Thank you for your help. As per Hunty first thing i did this morning was replace the condensor. Sure enough that was the problem. Almost a week of headaches and agravation for a $6.00 part which I suspected but I didnt think of replacing because it was new just 2 weeks. I will leave my distributor where it is. I am sure someone in the past had a reason for installing it that way and just tuned it to that tower. I am a happy camper. Thanks guys.
Robert

hunty
06-17-2014, 05:21 PM
No worries mate, yeah I spent half a day a few hours from my house trying to fix it, and we had two other guys who where mechanics.
I wouldn't worry about your firing order, mine was wrong according to the manual pics but when a pulled the rocker cover everything lined up with number one(just not "one" on the dizzy).
I don't know about the state's but here I had to buy another one later on as the first one was the wrong one, I had to buy one to suit same model truck as there was no listing for the cars.

simplyconnected
06-17-2014, 07:23 PM
If your condenser was bad you had no spark at all. It would have helped if you mentioned that.

Even so, I hope you get your distributor right because it does make a difference. Right now, your rotor is not sitting in front of a spark plug tower when the spark happens. You may see this if you look inside the cap; carbon will trail one edge of each tower electrode. This promotes a carbon track.

Glad to hear you got your spark back. - Dave

hunty
06-17-2014, 08:39 PM
If your condenser was bad you had no spark at all. It would have helped if you mentioned that.

Even so, I hope you get your distributor right because it does make a difference. Right now, your rotor is not sitting in front of a spark plug tower when the spark happens. You may see this if you look inside the cap; carbon will trail one edge of each tower electrode. This promotes a carbon track.

Glad to hear you got your spark back. - Dave

Sorry but i've got to disagree with you here, mine had spark still, both out of the coil and number one plug. It was just so weak it wouldn't fire, it would try but I'd only get a pop, we all thought it was carb related at first.
Good to hear you got it running again.

RBT2013
06-17-2014, 10:16 PM
Dave,
Actually I did have a spark. I menined that on my original post but I guess it was weak, but I thought a spark is a spark.. lesson learned. And yes I will eventually get that distributor fixed, right now I am just glad she is running. Thank you again.
Robert

simplyconnected
06-17-2014, 11:45 PM
Sorry but i've got to disagree with you here, mine had spark still, both out of the coil and number one plug. It was just so weak it wouldn't fire, it would try but I'd only get a pop, we all thought it was carb related at first.
Good to hear you got it running again.
It's healthy to disagree mate, that's how we learn from each other.

If I don't see and hear that pretty blue, 'snap' coming from a spark plug, gapped at ~.030", I consider that 'no spark at all'. Orange colored spark doesn't do it, either.

I have seen where coil polarity was reversed for years, giving substandard spark. Just because it works does not mean it is right, but it's hard to argue with success.

Ultimately, the owner will do what he wants. After all, it is his car and his money. All I can do is suggest correct procedures based on the Shop Manual. - Dave

hunty
06-19-2014, 09:20 PM
Hi all you fe gurus I thought I'd ask here instead of starting another thread. What's the best fe to get, I can get a ribbed cobra jet block.
Would this be better in the long run or am I better to get a normal lateish 390 block. Aren't the cobra jet block not drilled for hydraulic cams? The bloke that has the engine reakons the ribbed blocks can be bored 80thou, which would give me a 410?
Cheers Andrew

simplyconnected
06-19-2014, 09:27 PM
If you don't want a 390, get a 427. They use the same crank.

hunty
06-20-2014, 02:28 AM
If you don't want a 390, get a 427. They use the same crank.

What's a 427 worth, over in the states. all the complete ones here are $10000. Hence the reason for the 390 I may be able to afford one lol