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davidmij
04-23-2013, 12:17 PM
The other day I was driving my car, it has a 4 speed toploader. While sitting almost still I was trying to get it into gear and it seemed as though the linkage was binding - it wouldn't shift into any gear. I stopped completely and put some arm into it, double clutched and it seemed to unbind. It was shifting normally again.

I drove down the street through all 4 gears, when I started to slow down I tried to down shift into 3rd but all it would do is grind. I'd double clutch, and slow down, but it would still grind. I could downshift into 2nd OK and then even 1st. Up shifting is no problem, it goes right through all the gears as normal. But whenever I try to downshift from 4th to 3rd it grinds.

Anyone have any idea whats going on? Did the binding shifting cause a problem with the syncro?

thx, Dave J

KULTULZ
04-23-2013, 12:34 PM
1) Clutch Dragging (Adjust) Or Worn

2) Shift Linkage Out of Adjustment And/Or Linkage Bushings

3) Bad Blocking Rings

Is it a fingered or diaphragm pressure plate?

simplyconnected
04-23-2013, 12:40 PM
Your shifter linkage bushings are either too sloppy or they aren't set correctly.

Shifter forks in the trans are detented. If you shift very slowly, the fork may not return to neutral before the shift lever engages the next fork. This creates a 'binding' situation, especially if the fork is still in 2nd but the shifter already let go of that fork and is trying to move another fork.

Because the gears are detented, shifting a little faster will seem to make the situation go away.

Pull the shifter linkage rods off your rock crusher and see where they naturally 'fall' with the shifter in neutral. I used to pin my Hurst shifter in neutral with all the 'tabs' centered. Adjust the rods so they easily slip over the trans studs when they are in neutral as well.

If the shifter still leaves a gear before it is returned to neutral, rebush the shifter linkage. - Dave

davidmij
04-23-2013, 07:38 PM
Gary and Dave, I know next to nothing about transmissions so I don't know if it's a "fingered or diaphragm pressure plate. It's a 1969 1 3/8 input and output close ratio trans - tag number RUG-AJ. I bought a basic (refurbished) flywheel, clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing all from the same place - they are supposed to be for correct for a 1969, and I'm pretty sure they are because they went in no problem and have worked well for about 200 miles.

The shifter is a refurbished Hurst super shifter I got on e-bay - it looked brand new. All the bushings etc. looked brand new as they should with a rebuild.

I bought the linkage brand new from Hurst, I called them and they helped me get the correct stuff - fit like a charm. That was pricey stuff!

I adjusted the linkage before installing the trans. I used the Hurst instructions with the plastic pin to align the shifter in neutral. I then adjusted the lengths of the rods to go on to the shift studs as easily as possible. I then set the stop bolts according to the instructions.
Next I taped all the linkage rods together so they wouldn't turn or move any when I removed the shifter from the trans before stabbing the trans.

I just got back from a ride and it seems to be a little better. It now will down shift from 4th to 3rd but it makes a bit of a "crunch" instead of just grinding. Just to reiterate, it does fine up shifting and down shifting except for down shifting from 4th to 3rd.

I'm guessing I should start by undoing the 3/4 gear rod and readjusting it to make sure it's positioned correctly.

Dave, what's a "rock crusher".
Gary, what are "blocking rings".

KULTULZ
04-24-2013, 05:45 AM
I'm guessing I should start by undoing the 3/4 gear rod and readjusting it to make sure it's positioned correctly.

Dave, what's a "rock crusher".
Gary, what are "blocking rings".

Correct, ascertain correct linkage adjustment and clutch adjustment. A hanging clutch will cause drag inside the trans.

Blocking rings are at the synchronizers and slow the gear(s) to mesh correctly. If you were "double-clutching" and the shifts were better, you have a drag or bad blocking rings/synchros.

davidmij
04-24-2013, 09:33 AM
Thx Gary,
yeah, double clutching, triple clutching and clutching over and over again makes no difference. Even revving the rpm's to match the speed of the wheels turning doesn't help.

I adjusted my clutch linkage per my 1959 T-bird shop manual. I'm not sure that is the way to go being that I have a 1969 trans and a Lakewood bellhousing. I also had to fabricate my Zbar and linkage because I couldn't find exact parts. It all worked great for a while and I believe it is OK. Although my clutch push rod between the Zbar and the clutch fork angles downward - I'm not sure if it is supposed to be like that or if it should go more straight in. I would think it should be straight as possible.

I'll try adjusting the 3/4 linkage this weekend and see if I get any better results.

thx!

KULTULZ
04-24-2013, 04:16 PM
Check all of the clutch linkage also to make sure something hasn't failed.

Get back to us... ;)

davidmij
04-28-2013, 01:22 PM
I pulled all 3 shifter linkages and readjusted them. Reverse needed one turn and so did 3rd/4th, but they were very close to where they should be so naturally it didn't help any.

The clutch linkage looks like it always has so I don't think that is a problem. If it was the clutch linkage I would expect it to grind when I down shift to 2nd and/or 1st also, but it only does it on a downshift to third from 4th.

I read a couple of things on line about using synthetic oil instead of gear oil. They said that can loosen things up sometimes. Others said that it can also cause problems such as the tranny jumping out of gear on its own. Any thoughts on this gents?

thx, Dave J

KULTULZ
04-29-2013, 03:35 AM
If you are FULLY SATISFIED THE LINKAGE IS ADJUSTED CORRECTLY and there is no clutch disc drag and the problem is only with 3rd - 4th, I am going with a 3-4 synchronizer and or blocking ring.

-DAVID KEE TRANSMISSION LUBRICANT INFO- (http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/specifications.htm)

ADDENDUM From HURST-

What is the proper way to adjust my Hurst four speed shifter?

There is a 1/4 inch hole at the bottom of the Hurst mechanism that runs through all three levers. This is called the neutral alignment hole. To ensure proper adjustment, run the shifter from first into second and then back to neutral. Insert the neutral alignment pin (or a 1/4 inch drill bit) into the neutral alignment hole. If the 1-2 lever interferes with the smooth insertion of the alignment pin, remove the 1-2 linkage rod from the shifter and thread the adjuster button either in or out to eliminate the interference. Repeat this procedure with the 3-4 lever and reverse. To adjust the stop bolts, back the bolts out of the shifter frame until only a few threads remain. Push the stick firmly into third gear and hold. Screw in the stop bolt until contact is made. Release the stick and back the stop bolt out one turn and tighten the jamnut. Push the stick into fourth gear and repeat the procedure.


Rule of Thumb-

Cast iron cases take gear oil, aluminum cases take ATF. A synthetic may cause hard shifting.

davidmij
04-29-2013, 09:54 AM
Thx Gary, I used the instructions Hurst sent with the shifter linkage, they are basically the same as you sent, and I am certain the shifting is adjusted correctly.

The info from David Kee's site is good to know, thanks for that.

Being that it is only a problem when down shifting to 3rd I'm guessing that what you said about the "3-4 synchronizer and or blocking ring" is most likely the problem. According to the link I sent below clutch drag could ruin my syncros.

Also, I'm not too sure about my clutch. Being that my Z-bar, and Z-bar engine side mounting bracket are custom made pieces I'm not sure if the pedal throw is optimal. I looked up "clutch drag" and found this short article; http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/clutch-drag-kills-synchros
I have been driving it fairly aggressively, (that's kind of why I built this car). My clutch fork push rod does not go into the clutch fork perpendicularly, it points more downward. If I were to make the Z-bar lever about an 1 1/4 inches longer it would be close to perpendicular. Does that make sense? That would give me more pedal throw too.

I'll take some pictures after work today and try to post them, but it's hard to get in there with the camera. I might draw it up and post a scan of that instead.

I also get a bit of stutter or shimmy when I let out the clutch at lower rpm's in first gear. If I have the choke engaged it runs at a higher RPM and does a lot better. Could that be telling me anything? My idle is set at about 750 RPM.

thx again, Dave J

KULTULZ
04-29-2013, 11:32 AM
Also, I'm not too sure about my clutch. Being that my Z-bar, and Z-bar engine side mounting bracket are custom made pieces I'm not sure if the pedal throw is optimal. I looked up "clutch drag" and found this short article;

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/clutch-drag-kills-synchros

I have been driving it fairly aggressively, (that's kind of why I built this car). My clutch fork push rod does not go into the clutch fork perpendicularly, it points more downward. If I were to make the Z-bar lever about an 1 1/4 inches longer it would be close to perpendicular. Does that make sense? That would give me more pedal throw too.

I'll take some pictures after work today and try to post them, but it's hard to get in there with the camera. I might draw it up and post a scan of that instead.

I also get a bit of stutter or shimmy when I let out the clutch at lower rpm's in first gear. If I have the choke engaged it runs at a higher RPM and does a lot better. Could that be telling me anything? My idle is set at about 750 RPM.

thx again, Dave J

I would re-check the linkage, especially if fabricated. If you have a three finger pressure plate and the fingers are not depressed equally, it could warp the plate and/or the disc.

That sounds like the main problem. The fingers have to be depressed equally or the spring pressure is going to warp something.

Maybe consider going to cable actuated?

It takes a really hard man to break a F/4/S... ;)

DKheld
04-29-2013, 11:32 AM
Getting hotter (summer) so maybe your oil viscosity needs to be changed? Makes a big difference in the small 4 speed gearboxes I am more familiar with (although the top loader would probably take up the whole engine compartment on my "other" car - an MGA)

There is always a lot of discussion on oil types causing shift problems on the MG forum. Those cars use engine oil for lubrication (20W50). One fellow (who has owned his car for 50+ years) tries different types of oils and lubricants and gives his impression of the product.

For example this was his review of a synthetic product: "Several years ago I tried Redline MTL in my MGA gearbox for a 12,000 mile test. Immediately I didn't like the way it shifted, having to ham fist it to avoid grinding. The racer types might like that effect. I was very happy the day I drained it and returned to using 20W50 oil in the gearbox returning to finger tip shifting."

I was suprised to see that David Kee site recommends gear oil for the top loader - would have thought they had the same style gears as the MG (only bigger) and used engine oil - oh well - live and learn - now I know.

Hope you don't have to pull the tranny and install a new syncro.

Good luck,
Eric


http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/specifications.htm

davidmij
04-29-2013, 02:41 PM
Thx Eric and Gary.
I just realized I could give you this link and it will show you my Z-bar, bracket, and fork. If you look at pictures 54 through about 58 you can see that the pressure from the push rod to the clutch fork is tilted downward. However it seems to me that the throw out bearing would still be even on the 3 clutch fingers because the throw out bearing is held straight by the tranny shaft.

Hm, actually I guess the throw out bearing isn't a super tight fit to the trans shaft though. And even the slightest uneven pressure on all 3 fingers would cause a problem just as you say Gary. Although the fork only hits 2 places on the throw out bearing so once again it should be even pressure.
Thinking about that, and then what the article I posted said about the syncros getting torn up very easily - I wouldn't doubt that this was the cause and the effect from my off angle push rod and clutch fork connection.

Eric, I read a few things that suggest the same thing you are saying, and the past 2 weeks the temperature here has gone up from the 40's to the 70's. Night time lows were still freezing until the last week. With that, changing the viscosity is a quick easy try so I'll do that this weekend and see. I'm using straight 90 weight right now, maybe changing to 75-90, or trying the 20-50 oil.

Let me know what you think from these pictures Gary if you don't mind, and thx again.

https://picasaweb.google.com/101492851059660555641/StreetRatProject?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCJSKjNbR6eunsgE&feat=directlink

DKheld
04-29-2013, 04:02 PM
That's a cool build. Thanks for letting us come by your shop - even if it was "electronically"

I love that home-brewed slide hammer :D

Yeah - the other guys may know more about the linkages. The linkages on my MG's are enclosed and of course stock so no need for the mods like you are having to deal with.

On the oil thing - the main reason we don't use hypoid gear oil in the MG transmissions (which look similar only smaller) is that the EP (extreme pressure) additive sulfur stuff in the hypoid gear oil eats away at our brass synchro's and gear selector forks. Kind of looks like a brass syncro in your tranny (uh-o) but the expert dude recommends hypoid so just not sure on that.

Eric

http://media11.dropshots.com/photos/260234/20121215/154244.jpg

KULTULZ
04-30-2013, 02:32 AM
It is difficult to tell whether the clutch linkage is binding/deflecting by the photo(s). You have a one piece blow shield? One cannot look @ clutch operation with one (no inspection cover).

I hate to say it but you may have to pull the trans to check for any irregular clutch component wear and check the synchros/blocking rings while down.

The brass toothed rings in your photo are the blocking rings and the steel is the actual synchro.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rYxsH4VbT6A/UHGd6KTiaHI/AAAAAAAABhw/jfAhAXHkYXY/s800/80.jpg

ALMOST FORGOT- :rolleyes:

Go with the lube recommendations of the David Kee site. Usually, in this hemisphere, heavier engine oil usage is usually restricted to heavy truck transmissions. The F/4/S is meant for gear oil and the multi-grades are much better than the older straight weights (75W until the rear reaches operating temp and it becomes 90).

I have overhaul tech articles if you need. That dragging clutch tech article you found was great.

simplyconnected
04-30-2013, 06:43 AM
Youtube has an excellent video on how the brass synchro blocking rings work. CLICK HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXsRfbOiBhE&noredirect=1)

The wear which causes your shifter to grind or prevent gear changes happens inside the cone and around the three clutch hub inserts. These inserts can eventually elongate the slots which prevents the synchro rings from aligning. The inside cone also wears which prevents braking and causes that horrible grinding.

If you watch the video you will get a much better understanding of what's really happening inside your top loader. The guy actually has Muncie trans parts to show but Ford transmissions work the same. He also explains the importance of using correct lube and why your manual trans can burn up with the wrong oil.

My first manual trans rebuild was done on a Muncie from my '66 GTO, way back in the day. Once you get into it, rebuilding a manual trans is not real technical and a lot easier than it looks.

All these parts are available at reasonable prices. This is work you can do. The end result is very rewarding. To be honest, I never had the book to look at and I didn't need it. (My cluster gear had missing teeth so I changed it.) Good luck, Dave. - Dave

simplyconnected
04-30-2013, 07:03 AM
BTW, check out toploaderheaven's site: CLICK HERE (http://toploaderheaven.com/Toploader_Kit/toploader_kit.htm)

This guy will answer any of your questions over the phone until you're back on the road and provide a DVD to show how to rebuild your trans.

Want references? CLICK HERE (http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/mustang-pages-1965-1973/501922-toploader-rebuild-kits.html) (from the fordmuscle/Mustang forum) - Dave

davidmij
04-30-2013, 10:33 AM
Great info guys, thanks a ton!

The syncros video was great. I had no idea how they worked. I thought because the little teeth on the brass blocking gears looked good (on the outside) then they were fine. Little did I know that the problem would be on the inside cone of that gear! I actually thought the brass one was the syncro - learning all the time!

I will definitely use the 75-90 gear oil now too.

My son will be home from college in a few weeks. With him helping I can pull the trans and do what I need to. I was considering pulling my console inside the car and cutting a hole right above the access plate to the toploader. That way I wouldn't have to pull the trans. Then when I'm done I could cover it with an aluminum plate and thick gasket of some sort. However, I think I would also like to replace the clutch with something heavier duty so I'll still need to pull everything anyway.

Can you guys suggest anything in the way of a "heavier" duty clutch? The reason I ask is because I plan to have a shop in Albuquerque eventually (sometime in the next two years) build me a stroker out of my 390. Either that or I'll be adding an Edelbrock RPM performer intake, cam, and have my heads ported and matched. I want to end up with about 400+ hp. Right now I have a stock 315 hp 427 torque 390. I also have headers so I'm guessing I'm at around 350 hp.

One more question - if I use my stock sized 15 inch wheels my tire diameter is about 26 inches and the car can spin the tires no problem. Plus it is easy to get rolling from a dead stop.
But, when I put on the cheater slicks my diameter is 28.5 inches and the tires are also wider. It doesn't start from a dead stop as well as with the small tires. I have to ride the clutch a little longer and use a tad more RPM's. If I try to spin the tires with the slicks it just burns clutch. I have a 3.89 open rearend. Is a performance clutch and pressure plate what I need?

I know this is not normal wear and tear for what a car is intended. I will only be putting about 500 miles a year on this car and taking it to RatRod car gatherings. I've only tried spinning the old school cheater slicks on a very remote stretch of road that is safe and out of traffic. Maybe it's just that my motor (bottom half) is old and tired.

Anyway, thanks again, Dave J

simplyconnected
04-30-2013, 12:57 PM
...I actually thought the brass one was the syncro - learning all the time!... It is! Ford calls this part, "RING - SYNCHRONIZER BLOCKING" and we commonly call it a, 'synchro-ring.'

...One more question - if I use my stock sized 15 inch wheels my tire diameter is about 26 inches and the car can spin the tires no problem. Plus it is easy to get rolling from a dead stop.
But, when I put on the cheater slicks my diameter is 28.5 inches and the tires are also wider. It doesn't start from a dead stop as well as with the small tires. I have to ride the clutch a little longer and use a tad more RPM's. If I try to spin the tires with the slicks it just burns clutch...The reason we go with lower rear end gears is to lighten the burden on the rear member. When you apply lots of power train torque, then try to hold the car to the road with wide and sticky slicks, the weakest link is your rear end assembly. Changing the ratio to a high gear ratio like 3.9:1 or 4.3:1 allows the gears to transfer torque to the wheels much easier without breaking. It's not how easy you can burn rubber, it's how well the car launches.

I have seen axles that actually twisted 1/2 turn before breaking. More commonly, we have all seen ring and pinion gears let loose from extremely high torque. Nobody wants their top end to be 100mph but that's the tradeoff when you go with really high RE ratios.

The 8.8" RE in my 400HP Mustang was 4.30:1 but my (AOD) transmission had overdrive, which brought my top end back up again. So, changing one component affects so many others.

Want more ponies? Either buy an EFI system for your 390 or a Paxton (or Vortech) supercharger or do both. Your engine will wake up with tons more hp, using pump gas. Want your car to go faster? Shed about 1,000 lbs and buy an aluminum Mustang. - Dave

KULTULZ
04-30-2013, 03:46 PM
My son will be home from college in a few weeks. With him helping I can pull the trans and do what I need to. I was considering pulling my console inside the car and cutting a hole right above the access plate to the toploader. That way I wouldn't have to pull the trans. Then when I'm done I could cover it with an aluminum plate and thick gasket of some sort. However, I think I would also like to replace the clutch with something heavier duty so I'll still need to pull everything anyway.

Can you guys suggest anything in the way of a "heavier" duty clutch? The reason I ask is because I plan to have a shop in Albuquerque eventually (sometime in the next two years) build me a stroker out of my 390. Either that or I'll be adding an Edelbrock RPM performer intake, cam, and have my heads ported and matched. I want to end up with about 400+ hp. Right now I have a stock 315 hp 427 torque 390. I also have headers so I'm guessing I'm at around 350 hp.

One more question - if I use my stock sized 15 inch wheels my tire diameter is about 26 inches and the car can spin the tires no problem. Plus it is easy to get rolling from a dead stop.
But, when I put on the cheater slicks my diameter is 28.5 inches and the tires are also wider. It doesn't start from a dead stop as well as with the small tires. I have to ride the clutch a little longer and use a tad more RPM's. If I try to spin the tires with the slicks it just burns clutch. I have a 3.89 open rearend. Is a performance clutch and pressure plate what I need?

I know this is not normal wear and tear for what a car is intended. I will only be putting about 500 miles a year on this car and taking it to RatRod car gatherings. I've only tried spinning the old school cheater slicks on a very remote stretch of road that is safe and out of traffic. Maybe it's just that my motor (bottom half) is old and tired.

Anyway, thanks again, Dave J

The trans has to be disassembled out of the car. The tail-shaft housing has to come off and the rear bearing has to be pressed out. Get rebuild info before going any further. It is unlike a BW, SAGINAW or MUNCIE.

As for your rear, the is a formula to take all the values (tire size, rear ratio, peak HP/torque RPM) to arrive at the desired performance. You will also need a closed rear and traction control device(s).

This will give you an idea about a performance clutch asm- http://haysclutches.com/

Did you get my E-MAIL?

davidmij
04-30-2013, 06:54 PM
Ha, haaa, LOL, I get the point Dave. ;0)
I guess I need to make up my mind whether I want a one wheel wonder (open rearend) tire spinning junker, or a true posi, traction grabbing fast car. If I want the latter I better figure out how to shed at least 800 pounds.

I don't think I'll be throwing down $4000 for a supercharger on this rust bucket though. So I think I'm going to go for just acting fast instead of being fast. If you look at my pictures of the engine when it was opened up you can see that I really need to have the block, pistons, and cam rebuilt. There's a very reputable shop in Albuquerque (Andersons Automotive Machine) who can do it for around $800. They'll do the heads for a couple of hundred too. Then I can get an Edelbrock RPM performer intake for $300, and a carb, and put the top end together myself. That should put me just shy of 400hp, plus I'll have that famous FE torque. Upgrade the the pressure plate and clutch and (hopefully) be able to spin ONE of those cheap old school cheater slicks.

Anyway, back to the trans. I just checked my e-mail and I did get your e-mail Gary, thanks a ton! I'll go over it tonight at home and hopefully learn some stuff.

If you look at picture 56 on my link to my car you can kind of see that the ball fitting that sits on the clutch fork is pointing very downward. I'm gonna have a local shop fix the down arm of the Z-bar to be a little longer and that should help it go straight into the clutch fork. I'll also try the 75-90 gear oil. If everything else looks like it is adjusted correctly then I'll be pulling the trans and either learning how to rebuild a toploader or use a guy here in town that rebuilds transmissions in his garage.

thx everyone, stay tuned......

simplyconnected
04-30-2013, 07:27 PM
...use a guy here in town that rebuilds transmissions in his garage...That's the way to do it.

Most trans places charge a lot because they have to remove your trans and rebuild it on a bench, then the car either occupies a bay until the trans is done OR they push the car out of the way to free up the hoist.

When you walk in with a trans, 'rebuild' turns out to be strictly bench work that doesn't cost much more than the parts kit and a couple hours of the guy's labor. If you have a guy who does this in his garage, he has tools to remove the bearings for you.

There's no such thing as, having too many restorer buddies. - Dave

scumdog
04-30-2013, 08:19 PM
Just sayin':
My F100 has '70 429 with Edelbrock Torker (old original one!) 780 Holley, headers into 3" system.
Cam is Isky 272 and I have roller-rockers, guide-plates
Also has Pertronix in the dissy and Mallory coil.
Trans is C-6 with shift-kit, rear end is 'open' 4-spider unit, 2.75:1.
Rear tyres are 303 x 15" series 50 T/As on 10" rims
Truck weight in at about 4,000lb+

In a straight line it can smoke the left rear tyre all the way through 1st gear and half-way through 2nd.

1/4 mile suffers (a) due to weight,(b) rear gearing (c) non-locking rear end.

Does 13.89 at around 103mph at best, 'flying' 1/4 it has done 131mph.

But is fun to cruise in and I do a lot of road trips in it.

Sure, I COULD make it faster/quicker - but I don't want to upset the recipe...

davidmij
04-30-2013, 09:11 PM
That's a torqueing motor Tom! Sounds like a great truck and a lot of fun. I have the petronix dissy, now I just need everything else.
I know zero about automatic transmissions. My 4 speed is a close ratio so that doesn't help my 1st gear power, but the 3.89 rearend should more than compensate for it.

thx, Dave

davidmij
05-06-2013, 12:23 PM
Over the weekend I changed to 75-90 gear oil and adjusted the clutch fork push rod a couple of times - but it didn't help any.

Here's one more clue that should shed some light. If I am cruising along in 4th gear, skip downshifting to third and go to down shift to second but never engage it all the way - then I can downshift to third no problem. I just put a touch of pressure on second and never get even close to going into second. No grind, no crunch at all. What is happening? I don't understand very well how the trans works so I don't know what this is telling me. It must have something to do with the syncros stopping the third gear from spinning so it can down shift as it should?

Any knowledge on this symptom is appreciated.

thx, Dave J

simplyconnected
05-06-2013, 02:52 PM
Revisit this video for a better understanding of how the Slots/Inserts and Synchro Rings work:
Youtube has an excellent video on how the brass synchro blocking rings work. CLICK HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXsRfbOiBhE&noredirect=1)

The wear which causes your shifter to grind or prevent gear changes happens inside the cone and around the three clutch hub inserts. These inserts can eventually elongate the slots which prevents the synchro rings from aligning. The inside cone also wears which prevents braking and causes that horrible grinding...

Great info guys, thanks a ton!

The syncros video was great. I had no idea how they worked. I thought because the little teeth on the brass blocking gears looked good (on the outside) then they were fine. Little did I know that the problem would be on the inside cone of that gear! I actually thought the brass one was the syncro - learning all the time!..

Over the weekend I changed to 75-90 gear oil and adjusted the clutch fork push rod a couple of times - but it didn't help any.

Here's one more clue that should shed some light. If I am cruising along in 4th gear, skip downshifting to third and go to down shift to second but never engage it all the way - then I can downshift to third no problem. I just put a touch of pressure on second and never get even close to going into second. No grind, no crunch at all. What is happening?...
The video shows how each cone 'grabs' and matches speeds for the next shift. They also need to LET GO, or your other gears won't match speeds. This is the importance of the Inserts, Slots, and how your shifter leaves the Shift Forks as you gate the shift handle. The setup needs to be right, both IN gear and OUT of gear. - Dave

davidmij
05-15-2013, 09:39 PM
Just thought I would update this post. Out of nowhere it started working again when I drove the car to work on Monday. It's been fine ever since. Anyway, most likely needs work but it can wait until I do a clutch or engine pull down the road someday.

Dave

KULTULZ
05-16-2013, 02:11 AM
Just thought I would update this post. Out of nowhere it started working again when I drove the car to work on Monday. It's been fine ever since. Anyway, most likely needs work but it can wait until I do a clutch or engine pull down the road someday.

Dave

Maybe it finally wore down the high spots... :D

Seriously, I think the clutch setup has a lot to do with it.

davidmij
05-16-2013, 09:12 AM
Who knows - at least until I tear it apart someday.

My clutch (or car) does chatter when I let out the clutch at lower rpm - maybe it's warped? I don't know which is more common, a warped clutch, pressure plate, or flywheel - I'd guess the pressure plate.
If it's warm, or I have the choke on it seems to not chatter. Maybe it's just the motor. It runs great when it's warmed up, but I think the rings are in a bad way - I think I'll do a compression check soon just so I know.

Dave

KULTULZ
05-16-2013, 09:23 AM
The trouble with your setup is the full surround blow proof housing. It makes it difficult to inspect the clutch asm.

Usually, it is a worn/bent/contaminated disc that will cause clutch chatter. That and heat glaze/hot spots on the flywheel and/or pressure plate face.

scumdog
05-16-2013, 05:37 PM
The trouble with your setup is the full surround blow proof housing. It makes it difficult to inspect the clutch asm.

Usually, it is a worn/bent/contaminated disc that will cause clutch chatter. That and heat glaze/hot spots on the flywheel and/or pressure plate face.


That is my worry with my hot-rod '37 too.

Ansen scattershield and I'm considering a hydraulic throw-out bearing...

KULTULZ
05-16-2013, 06:03 PM
Old Style-

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Ford-289-390-427-FE-Ansen-Bellhousing-Scattershield-Blow-Proof-2-PC-5016-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/~aIAAOxyvtdRIWeY/$%28KGrHqJHJE0FEUv3R8DqBRIWe%283f4!~~60_12.JPG

Have you thought about a cable setup?

davidmij
05-17-2013, 08:44 AM
Yeah, that Lakewood bellhousing came with the trans when I bought it. The flywheel was a refurbish from a small outfit online.

Do you think it helps the wear and tear to go with a "dual friction" clutch kit on a RatBird like mine? I eventually want to make a 445 stroker out of my 390 and will need some kind of an upgrade to handle the torque. Hopefully end up with HP in the low 400's.

Dave J

KULTULZ
05-17-2013, 09:49 AM
Study this URL-



This will give you an idea about a performance clutch asm- http://haysclutches.com/