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63Tealbird
03-06-2013, 12:09 AM
Since I have to tear into. My 390 to finnish a restoration that started and stopped 15 years ago hp is not nearly as important with a curb weight of over4100lbs torque is what gets us moving 428 crank not out of question although balanceing it could get$$$ though what part of hobby isn't degree cam but any ideas are welcome. Thanx. Jeff

davidmij
03-21-2013, 02:52 PM
Hey Jeff, I was just looking at this the other day. From what I understand the longer the stroke the more torque. A short stroke will allow for more RPM's and thus higher HP at higher RPM's.
This link here gives a few examples of what to expect from different length strokes.
http://www.coasthigh.com/Ford-FE-engine-kits-s/1302.htm

I'm not a mechanic - I'm sure the others guys on here can give you some good ideas on cam timing etc.

Dave J

simplyconnected
03-21-2013, 03:24 PM
Think of the crankshaft pin (the part that holds the connecting rod) as a lever. Now turn the crank so the pin is at 90 degrees. Given the same explosion at the piston top, a longer lever (stroke) will increase torque dramatically.

We can't just make the lever longer without consequences. Longer strokes require longer connecting rods, to keep the piston straighter. So longer con rod lengths help boost torque. Together, they are dynamite.

Enter the Harley~Davidson. They used Chevy 4" pistons with real long strokes. Using only two pistons, they delivered 70 hp and got 50 mpg. This is not a high rpm motor. Cruising down the road at 40mph feels like some giant is pushing from behind and you can feel each pump of his legs. It's an awesome feeling that never goes away. - Dave

63Tealbird
03-21-2013, 09:04 PM
Dave and Dave thanks was not sure about longer rods thought coast high performance only did small block thought wrong have to contact as 390 internal balenced 428 external. That and found machine shop within 25 miles that used to race FE'S so that's my man was never sure about hyperurtectic until your posted rebuild of penolpe how did it finally turn out. Thanks again. Jeff

simplyconnected
03-22-2013, 01:10 AM
Jeff, how's your New York weather? Here in Detroit it's cold and very windy. I put Penelope away until the weather breaks because I don't have a heated shop, then I will jump back into it.

Regarding the component materials I use, I always look at modern cars and modern engines. If we don't get 200,000 miles out of a modern engine there's something wrong.

When Squarebirds were built, if we got 80,000 out of an engine, that was about right. What's the difference? Both engines are basically the same, aren't they? Well, no. The materials are vastly improved and they reformulated our oil and gasoline.

Most engines today have aluminum heads, hypereutectic alloy pistons, moly rings, roller cams, are made to burn gasohol, and run on oil that has very little zinc and phosphorous. Modern engines run a lot hotter with higher pressure cooling systems. Electric fans and EFI helps, too. Totally different from standards Squarebird engines were built to. Put it all together and you get an efficient engine that runs 250,000 miles before the next overhaul. - Dave

KULTULZ
03-22-2013, 08:41 AM
If I may add-

If an older engine series is machined and assembled correctly, has a functioning crankcase ventilation system and proper fuel calibration along with a hot ignition and is placed on a proper PM schedule, it will last indefinitely.

davidmij
03-22-2013, 12:33 PM
Great explanation and analogy in post #3 Dave Dare. That makes it easy to understand where the torque (power) comes from.
Thanks!

63Tealbird
03-22-2013, 09:22 PM
Dave thanks for info still cold and windy here on long island. Just started new job 70 miles each way leave house 430 am home 630-77pm

gaffney1951
03-23-2013, 02:10 AM
A 4.25" stroker kit and a .030 over bore will get you 445",s. That setup with crank, rods, forged pistons/pins & chrome molly rings, with main and rod bearings, balanced will run you around $1700. Not very hard to get 500+ft/lbs with a very broad torque curve. That will put a smile on your face. Have your block sonic checked for wall thickness before you put any money into it. If you go 428 crank with a .030 overbore that will net you around 416",s. By the time you pay to have the crank turned and polished, the rods reconditioned (personally I wouldn't use 50 year old rods in a nice engine), and new pistons/rings and all the other items listed with the above package you are pretty close, or at the price of the 445 setup. It's good to have a Bad Bird.:) Mike

63Tealbird
03-23-2013, 06:13 AM
Mike I agree Dave Jones post coast high performance has 428 crank based stroker kit all crank rods piston rings bearins for about 1800. Not bad for bottom end wouldn't think of not having at least magnafluxed kit is for. 30 over balancing extra good deal basically parts Dave Dare recommended thanks again Jeff

BDASTRK
09-02-2013, 12:50 AM
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/CAM004841_zpsac101bba.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/CAM004841_zpsac101bba.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/CAM001051_zpsb8aa8fc3.jpeg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/CAM001051_zpsb8aa8fc3.jpeg.html)



Going in This

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/IMG_00641_zps189a96db.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/IMG_00641_zps189a96db.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/IMG_00581_zpseeafe1eb.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/IMG_00581_zpseeafe1eb.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/IMG_00511_zpscca95dce.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/IMG_00511_zpscca95dce.jpg.html)

simplyconnected
09-02-2013, 02:45 AM
Yep, it's all good stuff; studs everywhere instead of bolts, the right timing chain, four-bolt mains, rods are really nice, I see a box from Hastings Piston Rings... I'm surprised you are running cast iron heads instead of Edelbrock Performer RPMs. What cam are you using?

I love your frame. Plenty tall and strong enough to tame twist from this engine. - Dave

BDASTRK
09-02-2013, 03:06 AM
I really didnt want too run Aluminum heads Dave for 1 main reason..........the Theme of the car. As with every build I do, there is always a theme, this theme is a Shelby designed Thunderbird. I am attempting to do what he might have done with the T-Bird back in the 60's with a Twist

Too achieve that I wanted Iron heads, so it took quite a lot of work and extra Thermal Barrier coating to get the HP that high and still run on pump gas...........which still might be pushing it.

I am not a big fan of the Ebocks out of the box either, so if I was to do a set of Aluminum heads I would probably try to get my hands on a set of Barry Robotniks heads.

The C4 Heads have been fully ported, Bowl blended, and Thermal coated the flow Numbers @.600 are 276/197 so if you compare these warmed over C4's they outflow the Ebocks!

Cam Shaft is a Custom grind Roller from Comp
Cam Specs 282/288 @ .050 .580/.590 108 LSA (hydraulic roller)

simplyconnected
09-02-2013, 09:33 AM
Ron, forgive me. Sometimes I lose sight of the fact that many of these engines are not going to be used for Interstate Highway travel over hundreds of miles.

For drag racing, your engine is sweet, strong and gorgeous. I come from an era where we had plenty of leaded high octane pump gas. And yes, 500-6ooHP was common around Detroit because speed shops were all over. All of our engines were cast iron. We would commonly see half-twisted axle shafts produced by serious torque, serious slicks and serious RE gears in a heavy body car.

I have no love for any particular aftermarket head company but FE engines are constrained to a very few choices in aluminum. Aahh, aluminum... the single most saving grace to remedy the ill effects of gasohol. It's wonderfully light and it transfers heat far quicker than iron. Aluminum is the only reason gasohol can go back to high compression ratios using optimum air-to-fuel ratio of 14.7:1 without a knock, ping or run-on. BTW, Carroll Shelby uses supercharged aluminum engines in his Mustangs.

I'm building a 390 using a Comp Cam & Morel hyd rollers. What did you set your lifter preload at? What did you set your cam/crank timing at, and did you measure your piston-to-valve clearance yet?

I like your cam grind for extremely high rpms. You have lon-g duration at 282/288 int & ex., high lift at .580/.590, and lobe separation of 108*. What spark plugs are you running? - Dave

BDASTRK
09-02-2013, 10:44 AM
Ron, forgive me. Sometimes I lose sight of the fact that many of these engines are not going to be used for Interstate Highway travel over hundreds of miles.

For drag racing, your engine is sweet, strong and gorgeous. I come from an era where we had plenty of leaded high octane pump gas. And yes, 500-6ooHP was common around Detroit because speed shops were all over. All of our engines were cast iron. We would commonly see half-twisted axle shafts produced by serious torque, serious slicks and serious RE gears in a heavy body car.

I have no love for any particular aftermarket head company but FE engines are constrained to a very few choices in aluminum. Aahh, aluminum... the single most saving grace to remedy the ill effects of gasohol. It's wonderfully light and it transfers heat far quicker than iron. Aluminum is the only reason gasohol can go back to high compression ratios using optimum air-to-fuel ratio of 14.7:1 without a knock, ping or run-on. BTW, Carroll Shelby uses supercharged aluminum engines in his Mustangs.

I'm building a 390 using a Comp Cam & Morel hyd rollers. What did you set your lifter preload at? What did you set your cam/crank timing at, and did you measure your piston-to-valve clearance yet?

I like your cam grind for extremely high rpms. You have lon-g duration at 282/288 int & ex., high lift at .580/.590, and lobe separation of 108*. What spark plugs are you running? - Dave

I am very familiar with the Aluminum supercharge combo's that Shelby ran, I also know that he more then likely would never have put an Aluminum supercharged engine in a bird!

The Valve train is not done in that motor, in was just mocked up in that picture, that is next. I can tell you from vast experience even with Aluminum you are NOT running anymore then 11 - 1 compression on pump gas without an engine management system. I have worked with some pretty high end builders 1 in particular who builds his own Engine management wiring harnesses. The threshold for carb motor on pump gas without a computer is pretty low no matter what material is being used.

Example A/C Nutter this particular builder 2 yrs ago did quite the extensive study for his engine program Max HP and TQ on pump gas Carb LS engines vs Fuel Injected with factory engine management vs his Electronic system. The results where incredible.

I am going off memory here but the Carb motor at 10.5 - 1 put out I want to say 450 crank HP, the LS GM with a computer remap put out over 500 HP and his system which had the ability to run a much higher compression ratio put out 600 hp!

He also did the same testing on his LS with higher compression with the Carb and it was detonating. A/C use to build cup motors and sprint car engines. This particular test I remember was done with an all Aluminum LS.

This particular motor I am doing is a 6000 RPM rev limited RPM motor. The idea behind the Thermal Barrier coatings on the piston tops, In the combustion chamber, on the valves and in the runners is to get the heat out of the combustion chamber and not into the head.................this should allow me to run this motor at its 11.1 design criteria.

This all could be for nothing as the Dyno is 1 thing, putting in a 4000 lb land barge and moving it around is another. This is why the rear end has 370's in it, 26" tall rear tires and will have a gear vender attached to the C6. This should give me the best of both worlds in town and on the freeway.

Spark plugs..............right now the motor for the break-in has NGK's in it, I would have to look and see what the P/N is. I am not an Autolite fan and will probably continue down the NGK road to find the proper heat range if what is in there doesnt work. Still have a lot of testing to go.

This motor still has a ways too go before firing off, but here are the specs.

Forged 4.25 stroke Crank
Callies Ultra H Beam connecting rods
Cross bolt main Block
Comp cam
Harland Sharp Full roller rocker arms
Heavily modified C4 heads with CJ size valves
Shelby Sidewinder Intake
Quick Fuel 950 CFM Carb " I had this custom built by Phil Rapala in Chicago
Pertronic Billet distributor
Pertronix Second Strike CD box and Flame thrower coil
Canton oil pan and Windage tray
Melling high volumn oil pump modified
Oiling system upgrades
SFI harmonic bal
Aluminum water pump
Micro Slick on all bearings, Gears, Piston Skirts etc
Thermal on piston tops, Combustion chamber, Exhaust runners, Bottom of intake manifold and intake runners
Oil shedding coating bottom of pistons

The motor will receive an oil cooler, and a custom set of 2" Primary headers that I will build myself. There truly isnt any VooDoo here and I am not trying to build a Race car that is driven on the street................but more of a Restomod 12 second street car.

The Thunderbird as a whole is not especially well built to begin with, or conducive to high HP and old school technology motor on todays pump gas. So keeping it tame and getting the most out of it without it being problematic is a chore. I left behind a 800 RWHP 2003 Ford Lighting a few yrs back " Totaled the truck " and I have missed having some serious HP of my own. The wife has the 32 High boy I built her, and I have the chopper but the Chopper doesnt get me that feeling and the 32 isnt mine..............so this is why I am here. Why I chose this car.............I still wonder that myself to be honest.................I think it had to do with being totally off the wall!

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/TheImpaler001.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/TheImpaler001.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/MICHIGANJIMPALERakaNEWSMOOTHY003.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/MICHIGANJIMPALERakaNEWSMOOTHY003.jpg.html)

YellowRose
09-02-2013, 11:00 AM
Interesting commentary, but I love the "toys" in the pictures!

BDASTRK
09-03-2013, 01:07 AM
Interesting commentary, but I love the "toys" in the pictures!


What did you find interesting?

YellowRose
09-03-2013, 01:35 AM
Both your comments, Ron and Dave's. They are educational...

BDASTRK
09-03-2013, 02:06 AM
Both your comments, Ron and Dave's. They are educational...


Ahhh I thought maybe you had something specific you might have read? It has always been one of my strong suites, to learn as much as possible about new vs old technology in cars. I am a mechanical engineer by trade, and although it has nothing to do with the Automobile industry it truly is amazing the cross over. I design painting and Powder Coating systems, and Mechanics..............well is mechanics. However controls and sensors are what intrigue me the most.

It is no wonder that cars of today do what they do, both in fuel mileage and in HP! In 2009 I built a 2003 Ford Lightning, I bought the truck in 2004 and slowly added mainly appearance, mods from Billet Wheels to custom Grill etc.

Once that was all done I decided to build the Motor.....what is amazing to me what the ability and ease to get 600 RWHP on pump gas. What was even more amazing was the Ability to get 800 RWHP well really 791 but close enough out of race fuel and a program and pulley change.

To do that in an old school motor isnt achievable.......I find it like going back in time on this build.........and how difficult it really is going to be to get just 500 RWHP out of this motr and the expense to do so.

I took 5.7 litres 348 CI Mod motor and produced 800 RWHP, I am building a 482 CI FE with some impressive parts and will be lucky if I get the 500 RWHP. Some ask me why are you even doing this...........I always chuckle and my response is................because of the challenge #1 and #2 I have never done a carb motor!

I am about as anti Carb as it gets............I really cant appreciate them no matter who builds them or how great they can be built............they are a metered fuel leak.

simplyconnected
09-03-2013, 07:07 AM
Ron, my hat goes off to you for attempting this project. I'm sure you will learn a lot from trying different thermal dynamics with coatings, etc. In my experience, well, coatings are overrated. But hey, why not give it a try. I hope this project turns out to be a huge success.

As you already stated, there is much testing and tweaking to do before you're satisfied with the result. You have all the right stuff straight out the gate which puts you well ahead of the guys who piecemeal their projects due to lack of funds.

Certainly, a mechanical background should be first, when doing automotive projects. The one-two punch is a well-rounded electrical foundation to add to that mechanical. Throughout engineering history, the mechanical guys and the electrical guys never saw eye to eye. In fact every function on a car had a mechanical override. The only electrical components on an engine were ignition controls (that were absolutely necessary). The mechanical guys fought tooth and nail to keep cars that way.

We have enjoyed strong electric motors since before the electric light bulb. But, Trico vacuum wipers ruled supreme on all cars up until electric wipers were offered as an extra cost option around 1959.

In 'automotive' there was no standard for electrical systems because they were thought of as a necessary evil. My '55 Ford has a six volt positive ground system. A dynamo that produced 180 watts maximum ran off of one belt, shared with the water pump. It stayed that way until auto companies realized Americans demanded and were willing to pay more for luxurious accessories (like turn signals) so suppliers demanded electrical standardization between auto manufacturers.

Mechanical Engineers ran the show and they kept carbureted systems around as long as they could. Very slowly they succumbed to improvements offered only by electricity like electronic ignition, then pulse width modulated fuel injection using proportional integral derivative to loop feedback for the ultimate goal; to meet improved CAFE standards mandated by the US federal government (and the EPA).

Today's estorers face several problems. Our engines were engineered to 1960 specifications but the fuel and oil are now drastically different. Improved tires and safety options never heard of back then, are now the standard.

It is impossible to find young mechanics who work on classic engines and transmissions. If they cannot plug in a computerized OBD readout, they simply pass.

The old Mechanical Engineers saw this complete about face coming. Now, Mechanical Engineers are harder to find than Electrical. In reality, the lines of demarcation are gone so we all need both disciplines. - Dave

BDASTRK
09-03-2013, 11:00 AM
Hey Dave

Being I have spent the last 20 yrs in the Industrial coating world, I can tell you that internal coatings magic is real. The question is, is it worth the $.

I can tell you that I work directly with NIC Industries, and there is some data regarding Thermal coatings and some real world tests that actually prove their effectiveness. Here is the problem with them...............its overly expensive and the results in a plain Jane motor isnt real good.

There is a guy in Portland Oregon his name is Russ Meeks, Russ developed a custom Ceramic coating for the US Military. Russ showed me the test data of a fully built race motor that had every component in that engine coated with either thermal barrier, Oil Shedding coatings or Bearing surface slick. The before and after dyno showed an 7% increase in HP, a 15% reduction is internal oil and water temp.

Its a simple concept really, The bearing slick reduces drag, the thermal coatings shed heat and the oil shedding coating also reduces drag. However what I did find interesting is all the HP gains where achieved at 5000 RPM's and above.

So yes it works, however that particular motor cost over $10K to prep and coat. I have no doubt in my mind that it will work...........my only concern is for how long will be the question. The environment in that combustion chamber is quite hostile, so the question is will it hold up.

Whats crazy is it cost me more money on the Iron Heads then it would have for a set of Ebocks. LOL Although a set of Ebocks out of the Box dont impress me all that much...........but these do!

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/FEHeads_zpsb775882d.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/FEHeads_zpsb775882d.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/FEHeads2_zps024ea060.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/FEHeads2_zps024ea060.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/FEheads3_zps5a80ab09.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/FEheads3_zps5a80ab09.jpg.html)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/bdastrk/FEheads4_zpsb153363c.jpg (http://s493.photobucket.com/user/bdastrk/media/FEheads4_zpsb153363c.jpg.html)

simplyconnected
09-03-2013, 06:41 PM
...Although a set of Ebocks out of the Box dont impress me all that much...........but these do!...Nice heads! Do they fit a 352?

Edelbrocks offer a good start and they are very available. They leave an extra 1/2" that may be shaved off the deck, which is exactly what I did for my 351W. I milled those Performer RPMs right down to the valve seats. They also come with stainless thread inserts, silica bronze guides, Viton seals, stainless valves, hard sintered metal seats (from powdered metal), hardened spring washers (perches), good springs, retainers, keepers, etc. The valves rotate by design.

Edelbrock FE heads have large valves that will only fit 390s and above. That eliminates Squarebird engines.

Hard to tell from pics but it looks like your heads have coated bowls, runners, threads, and I see bronze guides. I'd like to see a finished assembly.

Cerakote C-7300 and C-7600 spray-on (air dry) coatings are new to the market and have only been tested for two years. I'm concerned about the different coefficient of thermal expansion between the coating and aluminum alloy. In Michigan, ambient temps can reach twenty below F, and of course the combustion chambers heat very quickly under pressure/vacuum extremes. I would like to see some real statistics with samples from a large population.

...However what I did find interesting is all the HP gains where achieved at 5000 RPM's and above.
I don't know that this is practical for classic and family car engines that rarely reach 4k-rpm. - Dave

BDASTRK
09-03-2013, 10:27 PM
Nice heads! Do they fit a 352?

Edelbrocks offer a good start and they are very available. They leave an extra 1/2" that may be shaved off the deck, which is exactly what I did for my 351W. I milled those Performer RPMs right down to the valve seats. They also come with stainless thread inserts, silica bronze guides, Viton seals, stainless valves, hard sintered metal seats (from powdered metal), hardened spring washers (perches), good springs, retainers, keepers, etc. The valves rotate by design.

Edelbrock FE heads have large valves that will only fit 390s and above. That eliminates Squarebird engines.

Hard to tell from pics but it looks like your heads have coated bowls, runners, threads, and I see bronze guides. I'd like to see a finished assembly.

Cerakote C-7300 and C-7600 spray-on (air dry) coatings are new to the market and have only been tested for two years. I'm concerned about the different coefficient of thermal expansion between the coating and aluminum alloy. In Michigan, ambient temps can reach twenty below F, and of course the combustion chambers heat very quickly under pressure/vacuum extremes. I would like to see some real statistics with samples from a large population.


I don't know that this is practical for classic and family car engines that rarely reach 4k-rpm. - Dave


I think what is missing here is performance engine vs standard every day run of the mill rebuild. I dont do every day run of the mill rebuilds, if I am going to do a build regardless if it is for OLE MA's grocery getter to a drag strip motor its going to be performance based.

I also think that we are getting way off base from my intended concept which is to keep the head from soaking into the Head and the Cylinder. Running Iron heads was a desire, it wasnt my only option.

I could have easily Ran a set of CNC Blue Thunder heads and Intake and got a boat load more HP and still ran it on the street.........but again this wasnt my intention.