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davidmij
09-16-2012, 10:07 AM
OK, my next question for you gents is this. What carb is a good size/model, etc for my setup? I want good throttle response and power without going over kill.

My 1959 T-bird set up is a 390 with C4AE-6090g heads (Valves 2.02, 1.55 inch - port size 2.34X1.34 Ex port size 1.84X1.28, FPA headers with dual 2.5 inch exhaust. My trans is a close ratio 4 speed toploader. Rear end will be somewhere between a 3.55ish to a 3.9ish.

I currently have the stock autolite 4100 series 600cfm? I hear that is a good carb, but will it provide enough flow for my slightly more than stock setup? I will eventually go to a Edelbrock performance RPM manifold.

If I stay with this carb I have a good local mechanic that will rebuild it for $225, is that reasonable?

thx in advance, Dave J

KULTULZ
09-16-2012, 10:20 AM
I currently have the stock autolite 4100 series 600cfm? I hear that is a good carb, but will it provide enough flow for my slightly more than stock setup? I will eventually go to a Edelbrock performance RPM manifold.

If I stay with this carb I have a good local mechanic that will rebuild it for $225, is that reasonable?

:eek: TWO HUNDRED AND HOW MANY DUCKETS?!?

...gawd...

IMO, the 1.12 carb you have now will more than suffice for a street engine. You will most likely have to fatten it for the headers.

This carb is easy to rebuild yourself.

jopizz
09-16-2012, 10:57 AM
It costs about $17.00 for the rebuild kit and takes maybe a couple hours to disassemble, clean and reassemble. That's highway robbery.

John

davidmij
09-17-2012, 09:27 AM
Thx guys, I thought it seemed a little high. I'm guessing mechanics charge about $90 and hour. 2 hours max labor and $17 for the kit.
I could buy the kit, but I know next to nothing about carbs, and at our altitude of 7000 feet it probably would need some tweaking from any (standard) online instructions (or my shop manual) which I believe had the same basic carb for the 352 the car came with.

There's a guy on craigslist in Albuquerque that sells refurbished carbs. Albuquerque is a mile high, (just like Denver). I think I'll see what he can do price wise? He has a 90 day warranty.

Dave

KULTULZ
09-17-2012, 09:40 AM
If unable to rebuild yourself, I would consider PONY CARBS.

Make sure you inform them of the engine upgrades.

davidmij
09-17-2012, 04:47 PM
Thanks Gary, sadly Pony Carbs is out of business. I went to their home page and tried calling them but the numbers didn't work. I was reading this link and at the bottom is the bad news. It's from 2009 - strange that their web page is still up.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/868227-just-installed-autolite-4100-from-pony-carburetors.html

Sounds like the Autolite 4100 carb itself is a good one to keep. I have no idea what they are talking about with the "spread bore" verses "square bore". Hopefully I can find someone good to get mine rebuilt.

Dave J

KULTULZ
09-18-2012, 01:49 AM
Thanks Gary, sadly Pony Carbs is out of business. I went to their home page and tried calling them but the numbers didn't work. I was reading this link and at the bottom is the bad news. It's from 2009 - strange that their web page is still up.

:eek:

Pony Carburetors went out of business late last year when the owner passed away. Even though their website is still up, they will not return any phone calls, answer emails, and their Ebay store is gone. There are other carburetor shops out there that restores Autolite carburetors, but the "Spreadbore" was something only Pony Carburetors did. http://images.ford-trucks.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif... sheesh ...



Sounds like the Autolite 4100 carb itself is a good one to keep. I have no idea what they are talking about with the "spread bore" verses "square bore". Hopefully I can find someone good to get mine rebuilt.

Dave J

The AUTOLITE was one of the best and was designed by HOLLEY for FOMOCO, first year 1957. It was only dropped when FORD had to comply with more strict emission regulations.

PONY CARBS "SPREADBORE" was a specially modified 4100 that was meant for street use as 4100 cores are drying up.

It is a keeper, even if you don't use it.

Also, GOOGLE HOLLEY 4010 carburetor. This is an advanced design.

davidmij
09-21-2012, 11:40 AM
I think I found a really good company to help me do my carburetor, Mikes Carburetor Parts. http://www.carburetor-parts.com/
Here's a link for several videos on youtube that they post to help you do just about any job.; http://www.youtube.com/user/MikesCarburetor/videos?view=0

Now I have a question. My car starts beautifully every time. However, after I drive it for about 10 minutes the idle goes up and it won't kick down. It's like the choke is working backwards. I have the heat riser hooked up to the choke from the exhaust manifold. Also, when I get the headers what do I do with the choke heat riser inlet?

thx in advance, Dave J

jopizz
09-21-2012, 12:10 PM
Have you looked to see if your choke is wide open after it gets hot. The 4100 has two idle adjustments. A fast idle screw on the passenger side of the carb that hits the choke cam and a slow idle screw on the driver side. If your choke is wide open the fast idle adjustment should be off and it should only use the slow idle screw. You may have to back that screw off to slow the idle. It's also possible that your anti-stall dashpot is set too high.

John

KULTULZ
09-21-2012, 12:59 PM
Also get a can of aerosol choke cleaner and clean all of the linkages and make sure it operates freely.

If you go to tubular headers, most convert to a fully electric choke. If this proves not satisfactory (electric chokes usually are quick to open fully), you can add a fabricated choke stove to one of the header tubes. I will show you how when the time comes.

Do you have a Shop Manual (FORD)? It will describe choke operation and adjustments.

davidmij
09-21-2012, 03:59 PM
Thx gents, I forgot about the screw on the fast idle side. When I had the motor out I noticed that screw was stripped so I replaced it and forgot to adjust it any. I don't know carbs so I'll try my manual. Trouble is, my manual is for a 59 T-bird, the motor and carb are out of a 67 LTD. It might just be the same though - I'll check.

Just talked to Stan at FPA and he's shipping my headers today. I need to find a good source for exhaust pipes etc. I'd like to have an "H" or "X" pipe and then have the pipes turn out in front of the rear tires with a cap before the short, glasspak mufflers.

I'll definitely let you know Gary after I get the headers on so you can tell me about the choke stove.

thx, Dave J

tbird430
09-21-2012, 04:08 PM
Does it get that COLD in NM to warrant a header choke stove?

Maybe your in Northern NM?? :D

davidmij
09-22-2012, 09:56 AM
You guessed it Jon, I'm in Northern NM - in Los Alamos. It doesn't get super cold, but because we're at 7000 feet it's more like Denver. Santa Fe is at 6000 and Albuquerque is even at 5200. We get up to 95 for an extreme high and extreme lows are in the single digits. If I ever drive the car in the winter it'll be during a warm trend.
I have a friend who just started dental school in N. Texas in Amarillo, she's decided to be a dental hygienes. Her husband is doing a frame off restoration of a 54 ford truck. That's kind of what got me interested in my Ratrod project.

Dave

jopizz
09-22-2012, 12:47 PM
For your info Ford has different carburetor jets listed for 5000-10000 ft. I'm not sure whether they are installed at the factory or by the dealers.

John

davidmij
09-22-2012, 07:21 PM
Thx John, one of the guys at a carb site online told me the same thing about the jets. The car was an Albuquerque car so I'm pretty sure they are the correct jets. When I rebuild I'll make sure I get the correct ones. He also told me that the thinner air means less oxygen, which means I need to set the choke leaner to get more air (oxygen).

So anyway, you were spot on John. I took it for a run and whenever I floor it and open the secondary's the idle goes up and doesn't kick down. I got out and started to adjust the fast idle screw. When I pushed the screw driver into the screw slot it was enough pressure to push the throttle plate back down just a little and the idle dropped to where it should be. So, it seems that the secondary throttle closing lever isn't seating quite to the little all-thread stop screw - unless I get out and push it back down the last 1/16 of an inch. It seats fine until I floor it and open the secondards, then when it closes it just doesn't quite close that last 1/16 of an inch - it gets stuck.

I think I need to read more of the manual and see how the primary and secondary linkage ties together and try to see what is holding that tiny little bit open. I cleaned it pretty well when I had the carb off, and I didn't take the throttle plates out, but it still can't hurt to give it a good shot of carb cleaner on the throttle shaft.

Kind of strange that when the engine is off and I floor it to see how it works, the secondary throttle closing lever does go all the way back and sits on the stop screw like it should.

I hope what I wrote makes sense. I was having to look up the names of the pieces in my manual as I wrote. ;0)

jopizz
09-22-2012, 07:54 PM
There was a thread a while back about the secondarys sticking that I remember. It works by vacuum so unless the engine is running at high speed it's hard to replicate. I think the problem was fixed by changing the carb gasket. I believe he was using a gasket that didn't have the four complete holes. After changing the gasket to one with the holes it seemed to work. At least that's what I remember.

John

davidmij
09-22-2012, 10:41 PM
John, once again you nailed it. I cleaned it up, adjusted things according to the manual and went for a spin. It still got stuck at high idle after I step on the secondarys. I pull over, push the secondary throttle closing lever down, and it idles normal.

So I did it again, step on it till the secondarys kick in, it's at high idle, but this time I shut the engine off, and it drops down on its own. Hence, the secondary vacuum is the issue. The gasket looks good, but it is the kind without the compete holes. I'll try replacing it and see what happens.

thx Dave J

KULTULZ
09-24-2012, 10:03 AM
The secondary throttle blades hanging on an incorrect base mounting gasket is common as today's kits are not as quality as they once were. The blades may also be hanging due to corrosion/residue buildup. You mentioned you have an open base gasket? It needs to be the four holer as the vacuum signal(s) will be interrupted without.

Also, there is a tiny set screw to adjust the secondary's closing. Also, the secondary diaphragm (not included in kit) may be broken or the linkage binding.

The original FORD kit was PN C2SZ 9A589-D. These were available just a few years ago. It is a QUALITY KIT.

Also, FORD had trouble in the early years with the metal secondary operating arm. A re-design went to white nylon. Make sure this upgrade has been done also.

Yadkin
09-24-2012, 03:25 PM
Mike's carb parts has a basic rebuild kit for $30. You need to order the secondary diaphragm separately; it's either $10 or $30 depending on the male or female linkage, and you can't tell until you pull the cover off. They also sell a "complete" hardware kit for I think $60, includes the secondary diaphragm, floats, screws (but no lockwashers) and other stuff. The base gasket on the basic kit is wrong for most cars, but you can order the correct one from Advance for around $2.

So all parts including shipping will run you between $50-$100. It's hard to say if $250 from a local mechanic is a "good deal" because who knows what's actually being quoted.

That being said, my advice to the OP is not to fear rebuilding a carb. It's an easy job, will take a Saturday afternoon for a first timer and someone with experience can do it in less than an hour. Clear a nice spot on your workbench or folding table, take your time and disassemble carefully while paying attention to the diagram and instructions given with the kit. Clean the soft pot metal and brass parts with carb cleaner, wood or plastic dental picks, Q-tips, and some fine steel wool. Wear nitril gloves. I'd also suggest buying a good set of hollow ground screwdrivers (online for about $30 plus shipping) as they are much less likely to "cam out" when loosening old screws. There are certain adjustments that need to be made while rebuilding and then while on the car and after an ignition tune. These are all things that you should learn to do by yourself, as old car mechanics are few and far, and no one can tune a car better than its driver.

KULTULZ
09-24-2012, 04:06 PM
Good advice above-

http://www.mustangmonthly.com/howto/mump_1201_autolite_carburetor_rebuild/

jopizz
09-24-2012, 04:57 PM
The GP-Sorensen kit that Autozone sells comes with the secondary diaphragm and the nylon shaft. Part # 96-134D. It's $24.99. It doesn't come with the completely closed gasket though.

John

Yadkin
09-24-2012, 07:16 PM
I found the receipt for my hollow ground screwdriver set. Sold through Amazon, search "Grace USA Original Gun Care Screwdriver Set", for $38.50 plus shipping. Well worth the investment to protect the hundreds of slotted screws not just on the carb but all over the interiors of these cars. Not to mention your guns. ;)

davidmij
09-26-2012, 05:47 PM
I've done everything from pounding nails, to running a 6 foot (chuck diameter) lath, to painting cars, to assembly line work at GE, and now being a computer systems administrator, yet I never learned what a "hollow ground screwdriver" was. I've used them and knew how they worked, but I didn't know they had a name,,,,son of a gun.

Anyway, I rebuilt a couple of carbs when I was a kid, maybe now it's time I actually learned what is doing what. I had a carb kit from my other motor, the "GP Sorenson" $17.99 at Autozone. It had the diaphragm but I didn't use it because the old one was fine. So last night I used it to replace mine but it didn't help. It was an SOB getting the little press fit pin out of the old one because the one in the kit just had the hole.

I find it weird that the secondary throttle closing lever goes back to rest on the set screw when I shut it off and the vacuum drops, but while it's running it still sits about a 16th of an inch off the set screw (after they have kicked in) while running.

These Mike's videos; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SntO1M_7M-8
are really good. This one is my carb however mine doesn't have a "dashpot" whatever that does. I'll mess with it this weekend again. Tomorrow I'm headed all over the place to get stuff. Found a 9 inch third member in Albuquerque with 3.89 gears. The guy want $250 plus my 3.10 unit for it, and it's not even rebuilt. Seems pretty high to me but i can't find anything else in the state.
Also need a couple of rear brake cylinders, glass packs for the FPA headers that will be arriving tomorrow. YES! Gotta pick up my air compressor, a garbage disposal for a rental house, paint, etc. Now if i just had more time to build all this stuff!

thx for all the good advice, Dave J

Yadkin
09-26-2012, 07:04 PM
All the dashpot does is keep the throttle from closing quickly. This prevents stalling in certain cases.

I just replaced mine and the new one has a much longer "point" (for lack of an actual name) on it so I called the vendor. He said that's the only one they carry so most guys cut it down.

KULTULZ
09-27-2012, 01:30 AM
I find it weird that the secondary throttle closing lever goes back to rest on the set screw when I shut it off and the vacuum drops, but while it's running it still sits about a 16th of an inch off the set screw (after they have kicked in) while running.

...mine doesn't have a "dashpot" whatever that does. I'll mess with it this weekend again.

There is a lever on the right side of the primary throttle shaft that will (or should) contact and completely close the secondary shaft throttle plates (to adjustment) once the accelerator is fully released. Your problem lies there somewhere. The secondary throttle plates are hanging open slightly causing a un-metered vacuum leak, hence an enhanced idle speed.

The dash-pot is used on AT cars only. It prevents engine stall from the AT convertor drag from stalling the engine either while slowing abruptly or coming to a stop.

http://www.carbkitsource.com/carbs/tech/Ford/4100-index.html

davidmij
09-27-2012, 09:31 AM
Thanks Gary! I saw that when I was trying to adjust the fast idle cam. My manual calls it the fast idle lever. Mine is a screw with the head filed down so the fast idle adjusting screw will clear it. I'm pretty sure it not the correct pin being that someone put a filed down screw in there. I had thought that if it were fatter it would seat the secondarys like it should. Here's the picture from the manual with an arrow pointing to where mine has the screw.
Any idea on where to order a new one? Or any carb parts and pieces for that matter?

thx a ton, Dave

KULTULZ
09-27-2012, 10:29 AM
In addition to the URL in my above post- http://www.carbkitsource.com/carbs/kits/CK014BHW.htm

The fast idle lever also prevents the secondaries from opening with the choke not fully opened.

Do you have a Shop Manual showing the 4100? If not, they also offer the Shop Manual pages as a reference.

jopizz
09-27-2012, 10:32 AM
The original pin was plastic which is why they don't last very long. I usually just use a cut down nail. As long as it just fits through the hole it should be the right width. The idle screw will keep it in place. It's not a real high tech system. You didn't mention if you changed the gasket.

John

KULTULZ
09-27-2012, 10:36 AM
For your info Ford has different carburetor jets listed for 5000-10000 ft. I'm not sure whether they are installed at the factory or by the dealers.

John

Correct. When you go to the MPC Parts List for your particular carburetor (identified by Carb Asm Tag I.D. No.) the jets (Basic Service PN 9533) will be shown by your altitude if it pertains to your particular situation.

davidmij
09-27-2012, 11:10 AM
Yes, my manual does show it, it calls it a "Ford 4 barrel". The screw that is in there is a tad small for the hole and rattles around so I'll find a nail or proper sized pin of some sort.

The fast idle lever is preventing the secondaries from kicking in. In other words it is working correctly.

I did not change the gasket, but the mechanism moves very freely and is very clean. It doesn't bind anywhere at all. The only time it sits high is when the motor is hot and running, and after the secondaries have kicked in due to me flooring it.

My carb tag says it's a Fomoco "C5AF F" below that it has
"C 5DB". Do you know if that number tells me anything about the altitude?

I'm off to Santa Fe now to run some errands. If I get back in time I'll try fixing and ordering some of the items you guys suggested.

thanks a ton!

KULTULZ
09-27-2012, 12:22 PM
I just replaced mine and the new one has a much longer "point" (for lack of an actual name) on it so I called the vendor. He said that's the only one they carry so most guys cut it down.

I hate "One-Fits-All" or "It-Should-Work" or even better yet, "They-Are-All-The-Same"... :rolleyes:

The original Service PN is CIAZ 9B549-A and can be found NOS on EvilBay.

Here is a repro that looks correct-
http://www.championmustang.com/autolite-2100-4100-series-carburetor-dashpot-w-bracket-p-9848.html

KULTULZ
09-27-2012, 12:27 PM
I saw that when I was trying to adjust the fast idle cam. My manual calls it the fast idle lever. Mine is a screw with the head filed down so the fast idle adjusting screw will clear it. I'm pretty sure it not the correct pin being that someone put a filed down screw in there. I had thought that if it were fatter it would seat the secondarys like it should. Here's the picture from the manual with an arrow pointing to where mine has the screw.

Any idea on where to order a new one? Or any carb parts and pieces for that matter?

The PN on that pin is ...sheesh....

I Will Be Back... :mad:

I saw your CARB I.D. NO. and this will make everything more accurate... ;)

C5AF-F 1965 FORD 352 C/M

Primary Jetting-

49F (0 to 5000 altitude)
47F (5000 to 10000 altitude)

Secondary Jetting-

67F (0 to 5000 altitude)
65F (5000 to 10000 altitude)
63F (10000 to 15000 altitude)

NOTE- (F after jet size denotes FORD only jets. Early 2100/4100 used HOLLEY jets)

The pin (PIN- FAST IDLE ADJUSTING LEVER) is PN- B9A 9579-B (AUTOLITE CM-912).

You know something? Your secondary diaphragm spring may be weak also preventing full return after activation.

yellow98cobra
09-27-2012, 12:52 PM
I currently have a Holly 4160 (1848-1), 465 cfm carb on the car. Acording to Summit this is correct for 1960- 352, Amazon says this is not correct and list carbs of 600 cfm or larger. the autolite & autoline 4 barrels I have found for the 352 do not list CFM numbers. I was going to rebuild the one that is on there. But if its not the right one for the car then maybe a correct one should be purchased. I want a car that I can relie on to start run correctly.

jopizz
09-27-2012, 01:07 PM
Ford did not use Holley carbs on the Thunderbird 352. The Ford/Autolite 4100 600CFM was the only option.

John

yellow98cobra
09-27-2012, 01:13 PM
Thanks John, somwhere it her life it was swapped for the Holly and things were adapted to make it work. so going back I would need to revese those modifactions. Which makes me lean towards rebuilding whats on there. Allthough autolite 4100 carbs dont seem to be really expensive. Does it matter what year or car they came off of?

Ford did not use Holley carbs on the 352. The Ford/Autolite 4100 600CFM was the only option.

John

jopizz
09-27-2012, 01:19 PM
All the Autolite 4100's will work that have the 1:12 venturis. Some have an extra vacuum port that has to be plugged and some have a different port on the choke for the heat tube. An Edelbrock 1405/1406 is a good modern alternative.

John

yellow98cobra
09-27-2012, 01:47 PM
All the Autolite 4100's will work that have the 1:12 venturis. Some have an extra vacuum port that has to be plugged and some have a different port on the choke for the heat tube. An Edelbrock 1405/1406 is a good modern alternative.

John
I found this one @ jegs... $274.00
1405
http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1405/10002/-1

davidmij
09-27-2012, 05:58 PM
I found these guys just browsing. The guy I talked to was very helpful. You may be able to get the original style Autolite 4100 from them Eric. http://www.carbjunkys.com/
My 1959 T-bird 352 had one on it stock. So did this one I'm working on now - it's from a 1967 LTD with a 390. From everything I've read and found online the Autolite 4100 is an awesome carb, very dependable.

I'll check that secondary diaphragm spring Gary.

Just got home from Santa Fe and my FPA headers are here. Man, they are impressive! Can't wait to get this running this weekend. I sure wish I could find a reasonable 3.89 pumpkin to replace my 3.10. I found one in Albuquerque, but it doesn't have the fill or drain plug. The one in my T-bird doesn't have a plug on the back, just on the 3rd member. I guess I could drill a hole and tap it, or just fill it through the axle by tilting the car. Anyway, I'll worry about that later. If anyone has a pumpkin in the high 3's that they would like to sell let me know.

thx, Dave J

davidmij
09-27-2012, 08:31 PM
Hey guys, something I just noticed. If my motor is at TDC, and the timing is at about 6-8 degrees (which seems to run best for this motor) my number 2 and 8 wires on the distributor cap are about where the gray line is on this picture. Is that normal, or should number 2 and 8 be more like this picture at 3 and 9 o'clock?

I'm wondering again if my distributor might be 1 tooth off. Trouble is, I don't know how bad it would run if it was off by a tooth. Would I even be able to set the timing that easily?

thx in advance, Dave J

jopizz
09-27-2012, 09:04 PM
Remember that the gear is where the rotor is, not the distributor cap. If you can time the motor correctly and the distributor is not turned so much one way or the other to where the vacuum advanced is all the way left or right then you are good. If you were off by a tooth the vacuum advance would be so far one way or the other you probably wouldn't be able to turn it far enough to time it.

John

davidmij
09-28-2012, 12:38 AM
Yup, I understand that part John.
So if the timing is at 0 degrees, and I crank the motor by hand until the number one cylinder is at TDC, my rotor should be pointing mostly to the number one dist cap wire. It should at least be closer to that one than the ones on either side of number one, correct? As long as that is the case then I'm most likely on the correct gear?

I still can't figure out why the secondaries are sticking after I hit them. I even bent the secondary rod shorter so it word pull back more, but it still hangs at about 1/16 inch off the little set screw. As soon as I turn it off and the vacuum drops it goes back to where it should be - or I can just push it down lightly and it stays seated until I floor it again.

Actually, it's acting like the secondary throttle valves are stuck but only when the motor is running and pulling a vacuum. If I move it by hand it gets slightly stuck - like the vacuum is causing it to bind somewhere. As soon as I shut it off it moves freely.

Weird, there's not that much going on and it seems I should be able to see it. Maybe I'll have to pull the carb off and take it apart again.

crap.

jopizz
09-28-2012, 12:58 AM
As long as the rotor is pointing to the number one plug with the motor at TDC and the vacuum advance is close to straight ahead you are fine. If the vacuum advance is too far one way or the other then you are probably one tooth off. That doesn't mean the car won't run right. It just means you have no room left to advance it or retard it.

As far as the secondaries go I would still recommend changing the gasket. I've heard from more than one person that it had cured a similar problem. I'm not sure why but for a couple of dollars it's worth trying. If that doesn't work then I'll try to come up with something else. It's a fairly simple system so there can't be much that can go wrong.

Have you looked at the secondary diaphragm or spring. It's possible the diaphragm is leaking or the spring is weak. Both would affect how much force it has to close properly.

John

simplyconnected
09-28-2012, 02:52 AM
David, I explained the timing procedure when you changed your timing set. I also urged you to 'degree your crank'. Apparently you did neither.

It is VERY important that your points open when the rotor is directly in front of the correct spark plug post. If your distributor is off by a tooth, spark will happen when the rotor is between terminals (even if you could twist the entire distributor far enough to satisfy the timing light/crank marks).

Go back in my posts and carefully follow the timing setup procedure. When your crank is at TDC, #1 piston could be in its exhaust stroke OR power stroke. - Dave

KULTULZ
09-28-2012, 09:22 AM
What Dave said...;)

I even bent the secondary rod shorter so it word pull back more, but it still hangs at about 1/16 inch off the little set screw.:( mmm...

Not recommended.

davidmij
09-28-2012, 09:51 AM
Thx John, so are you talking about the large body gasket between the carb and the manifold? I thought you were talking about the secondary diaphragm because you mentioned the 4 open corners. I replaced the diaphragm completely - I'll pull it back off and stretch the spring a little. It just occurred to me that maybe the hinge on the secondary cap is binding when pushed back open after the secondaries have kicked in. It moves freely when the motor is off and I move it by hand, but maybe when it's pushed back by the spring from the inside of the diaphragm it effects the hinge differently. Anyway, I think we've beaten this horse to death, it's just a matter of me looking at it over and over until I see where it's hanging.

As for the timing and dist gears, I'm using a pertronix ignitor so I can't look at the points. But when I advance the timing 8 degrees the vacuum module is pointing at about 1:30 (12:00 would be straight forward) You said, As long as the rotor is pointing to the number one plug with the motor at TDC and the vacuum advance is close to straight ahead you are fine."If the vacuum advance is too far one way or the other then you are probably one tooth off." Is 1:30 straight enough at 8 degrees advanced in your opinion John? It's pretty close to hitting the coolant overflow tank. I can take a picture and post it later today if that'll help. I tried for over an hour yesterday to get the distributor to move one tooth but it just won't drop in that last quarter inch when I do. I got it to go the other way one tooth, but not the opposite way.

thx, Dave J

davidmij
09-28-2012, 09:57 AM
Yeah Gary, I was a little frustrated when I bent it. But it was already bent pretty bad by someone when I first got the thing so I thought what the heck. Like I said, we'll drop that subject for a while, I just gotta keep on looking until I see what's hanging it. If I can't figure it out today I'll just order several new parts including that rod and make it fresh.

thx again, Dave J

jopizz
09-28-2012, 10:42 AM
Yes, I'm talking about the gasket between the carburetor and spacer.

If the distributor is almost hitting the overflow tank at 8 degrees then it sounds like it's off. My car is set at 8 degrees and I have plenty of room to move it further clockwise. If the distributor won't drop in put a socket on the crankshaft bolt and move it slightly. It should go right in.

John

davidmij
09-28-2012, 04:03 PM
Thx John!
Now I have to do my daughter's brakes, so I may not get back to the bird till tomorrow.

davidmij
09-29-2012, 02:59 PM
Retensioned (stretched) the spring in the secondary pump and now it goes all the way back to rest on the stop screw - Yee Haw!

KULTULZ
09-29-2012, 05:28 PM
:D

Now, let me rain on your parade.

That spring also controls the opening point of the secondaries. If too tight, they will open late or not at all.

davidmij
09-30-2012, 09:10 AM
From YEE HAW, to oh boy..........

I'm gonna order a new one and the 4 corner diaphragm, and a new rod - enough is enough.

Thx again for all your help Gary.

Dave J

davidmij
10-11-2012, 12:05 PM
Well,,,,I finally got in touch with Mike's carburetors. They don't sell the secondary operating rod, or the diaphragm return spring.
Do any of you guys know of a source for carb parts like those?

John, Mikes carbs assured me that the gasket that they sell in their kit works for all the 4100's. It just has one big opening - not the 4 separate ones. I used the one in this picture from autozone that has the semi full circles and 2 little holes; http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/GP-Sorensen-Carburetor-Kit/_/N-8vd1z?itemIdentifier=3573_0_0_
It's the GP Sorenson one from Autozone. By the way, none of the edges were binding on the secondarys.

Does anyone know of a way to get the choke thermostat to work with headers? I think Gary had said he could tell me how. Also, can anyone provide me a picture of the lines that come off the manifold to the choke? I can't tell where the cold air side comes from on the carb.

I was also thinking of using a long piece of tubing, wrapping it around the header tube a couple of times, and running it to the intake on the choke housing. Good idea? Bad idea?

thx in advance, Dave J

scumdog
10-12-2012, 03:19 AM
I was also thinking of using a long piece of tubing, wrapping it around the header tube a couple of times, and running it to the intake on the choke housing. Good idea? Bad idea?

thx in advance, Dave J

I've done it using copper tubing and it worked. For what it's worth!

davidmij
10-12-2012, 09:13 AM
Way cool, thx Tom!

jopizz
10-12-2012, 10:53 AM
The GP Sorensen kit from Autozone comes with the secondary rod, diaphragm and spring. At least the last one I ordered did. I doubt you will find them separately.

As far as the base gasket I was just mentioning that it seemed to fix the secondary problem for some others. Whether it really did or it was just coincidence is anybody's guess but I just though I'd bring it to your attention.

John

davidmij
10-12-2012, 02:44 PM
Thx John, I just looked in the remains of my kit from when i got the motor running last winter and it does have the plastic arm. That's kind of funny because I replaced my secondary diaphragm by hammering the pin out of my old one (that was male) and putting it in the new one that was female. All I had to do was to use the plastic arm and that would have worked with the female one int he kit. (duh) Told you I didn't know what I was doing.

However the "secondary operating rod" is the metal arm that comes off of the plastic and goes to the "secondary throttle closing level" - that's the one I need. I'm using all these part names from this picture from Mike's Carburetor web site - I have no idea if they are correct terms, but probably are. The secondary operating rod that was on my carb had been bent so I'd like to replace it, and I stretched the spring (like an idiot) and now it's too strong for the vacuum to pull in the secondaries. The Sorenson kit doesn't show the "diaphragm return spring". I don't think it came with one.

Mike's suggested I find a parts carb if I need those pieces because they aren't made anymore.

I'm glad you mentioned the gasket though, cuz I wasn't sure which one I used from the kit. According to Mike I need the one with the large hole.

Appreciate all your help. I'm getting set to put the plastic arm on, try to bend the secondary operating rod to match pictures, retension the spring, and add a copper line for the choke. I'll most likely see if I can get a carb from this guy I found that has tons of old FE hardware. He says he has dozens of heads including GT's, low risers, medium risers, high risers, 30 or so 4 speed topploaders, differentials, intake manifolds including triple deuce's. Hopefully he has a carb! If you guys need any FE parts I can put you in touch with this guy.

jopizz
10-12-2012, 04:22 PM
I have a few 4100 carbs that I keep for parts including the one on my car so if you need an exact measurement of the metal rod let me know.

John

davidmij
10-12-2012, 05:40 PM
That would be awesome John. The length of the rod O.D. and the spring, if you have one not on the car. Really appreciate it.

I tried to show it in red here.
Dave J

jopizz
10-12-2012, 06:40 PM
The rod measures 3 5/8 inches and the spring measures 1 3/8 inches.

John

davidmij
10-12-2012, 07:34 PM
Fantastic John, thx!
I'm finding that the instructions from Mikes' are the same exact ones as my 1959 shop manual. Problem is, my motor and carb are from a 67 390 LTD, thus they are different. I've been googled my butt off for pictures etc.

My choke housing is different, and the manifold to carb spacer is different.
There's a small built in nipple on my spacer (just below the idle mixture screws) that is broken - that should have a tube going to it and is no doubt is a vacuum leak. Do you happen to know where that line is supposed to go or can I just plug it?

I'm going to ask the guy in Albuquerque with all the FE stuff if he has an old 4100 that I can buy for parts. Can't believe I let the one from 352 go with the motor - if only I had known.

thx, Dave J

jopizz
10-12-2012, 07:49 PM
I believe that nipple connected to the vacuum modulator on the later model transmissions. If you have the original transmission then it doesn't have one so by all means plug it or your car will run rough.

John

davidmij
10-12-2012, 09:48 PM
Thx John, I did and it seems to be just a little better. Before it would try to stall as I let out the clutch from a dead stop. It's not as bad now but still needs some work.

I tried the copper tube wrapped around my header and then ran that to the choke and it works! - kind of surprised at that.

I also re-did the timing with everything back to where it should be. I set the timing at about 9 degrees advanced for now. I think I'll try messing with that to see if it helps the stutter from a dead stop.

If you're bored and want to see some pictures of my project you can click this link to my photo site.
https://picasaweb.google.com/101492851059660555641/StreetRatProject?authkey=Gv1sRgCJSKjNbR6eunsgE

Thx for all your help today, time for a cool one now.

Dave J

jopizz
10-12-2012, 11:05 PM
It's great that you took lots of photos of your work. I wish I had done more of that on my resto.

I've taken my 4100 carburetor apart numerous times and played with it and I still get hesitation and stalling from a dead stop when I mash it. I've tried advancing my timing and it hasn't seemed to help. I'll live with it until I can pick up an Edelbrock for a decent price.

John

KULTULZ
10-13-2012, 11:23 AM
I'm finding that the instructions from Mikes' are the same exact ones as my 1959 shop manual. Problem is, my motor and carb are from a 67 390 LTD, thus they are different. I've been googled my butt off for pictures etc.

My choke housing is different, and the manifold to carb spacer is different.

There's a small built in nipple on my spacer (just below the idle mixture screws) that is broken - that should have a tube going to it and is no doubt is a vacuum leak. Do you happen to know where that line is supposed to go or can I just plug it?

Dave,

That spacer is most likely unique to a later model that needs a vacuum source. Just put a nipple over it.

While the choke housing asm is a little different on later models, you still follow the instructions for adjustments from the original kit sheet.

The spring and rod are unique to the carb year. You need to find the exact period donor carb to get the correct rod.

Looks like I dropped the ball on the choke stove. Do you still need the info? It requires taking a small tube onto one of the header tubes.

If you have wrapped copper coil around a header tube and are having manifold vacuum drawing the heated air to the choke housing, you need some type of inlet filter on it.

KULTULZ
10-13-2012, 11:26 AM
I've taken my 4100 carburetor apart numerous times and played with it and I still get hesitation and stalling from a dead stop when I mash it. I've tried advancing my timing and it hasn't seemed to help.

I'll live with it until I can pick up an Edelbrock for a decent price.

John

:eek:

Does this seem to be tip-in hesitation or as you are rolling, mashing the gas while hitting passing gear?

jopizz
10-13-2012, 01:07 PM
No, it seems to be fine while rolling or with the choke partially closed. It's just from a dead stop with the choke wide open.

John

davidmij
10-13-2012, 01:52 PM
Same here with the hesitation but I have a 4 speed. From a dead stop as i let out the clutch and give it a little gas it almost dies. I have to press the clutch pedal real fast and rev the gas to keep it from stalling.

As for the choke and the filter, that did occur to me Gary. Especially because the header is toward the underside of the car where the dirt gets kicked up. I thought I would run the tube back up to the carb and use a rubber hose to the source down spout like it was intended.

As well as the basic carb procedures being the same for different years even though there are little differences. I did a lot of reading yesterday, and found some good blogs discussing the flow of the air, etc. I can see what you guys mean when you tell me to do my own carb so that I will know how to adjust and tweak it.

From what I've been reading this carb is as good as they get and builders swear by them.

What do you guys have your timing set at?

thx, dave J

jopizz
10-13-2012, 02:42 PM
You can also go to an electric choke if you want. The choke cover from a later model Ford carburetor will fit the 4100.

I originally set my timing at the factory setting of 6 degrees with a timing light and then advanced it using a vacuum gauge. I believe it's set at 8 degrees now.

John

KULTULZ
10-14-2012, 04:38 AM
No, it seems to be fine while rolling or with the choke partially closed. It's just from a dead stop with the choke wide open.

John

OK... With the choke partially closed which indicates you are running lean.

First, use a vacuum gauge to verify correct manifold vacuum. It will indicate a vacuum leak or badly adjusted carburetor.

Verify accelerator pump integrity (diaphragm) and adjustment. It may need a longer stroke. Back in the old days when these cars were serviced for the season, this and a richer choke adjustment were a common adjustment.

Verify vacuum advance properly working.

Also consider many of these carbs were calibrated to their designated usage, i.e. it may be jetted and adjusted for a completely different application than what it has found itself on.

If you have a carb and it has no tag, usually the I.D. Nos are stamped on the LF carb foot. Calibrate it to your original application and make adjustments from there.

If one hesitates or bogs when floored while rolling, the vacuum secondary's are either coming in too soon or late.

jopizz
10-14-2012, 10:32 AM
I do use a vacuum gauge to adjust the mixture screws. The vacuum is at a solid 20. The carburetor is the original one with the 575 part number. The accelerator pump rod is not bent or deformed. Accelerator pump diaphragm has less than 20 miles on it. I've tried all of the four adjustment holes. The vacuum advance is working correctly. I'll try and adjust it a little richer and see if it helps. Any recommendations on timing. I have it set at 8 degrees. If I advance it any more it has trouble turning over when it's hot.

John

davidmij
10-14-2012, 05:26 PM
I just went through the step by step instructions in my shop manual from page 2-30 "Carburetor in chassis adjustment" It's running better, quite happy with it actually. However I'll have to see if the cold start adjustments helped in the morning. I FIRST adjusted my timing to be 8 degrees after messing with it yesterday.

Acceleration wise the manual talks about what Gary says; an accelerator pump diaphragm being bad, or "incorrect pump stroke adjustment". (I don't see where it tells you how to adjust that though)

It also talks about too lean or too rich a mixture. It doesn't say how to adjust it though. Being at 6800 feet I need more oxygen so mine should be leaner. Can you tell me the best way to adjust that?

As for my "stutter" it could just be that I'm running a close ratio 4 speed with a 3.10 rearend, AND that my clutch z-bar may not be the correct one. It seems like the clutch is very late. I'm getting a better feel for it as I drive, but it would nice if I could see a photo or two of the correct one for a 59 T-bird.

Dave J

davidmij
10-14-2012, 05:32 PM
Just googled adjusting lean and rich 4 barrels. It came up with this Holley page that say's "how to cure carb stumble". http://forums.holley.com/entry.php?428-How-To-Cure-Carburetor-Stumble
It says, "more than likely the carburetor needs an adjustment to the accelerator pump assembly."

The short article also talks about heavier vehicles with low number axle ratio's (just like mine).

KULTULZ
10-15-2012, 05:48 AM
If you have the 4100 Rebuild Kit Instruction Sheet, it will detail the accelerator pump design. FORD states that the linkage must be adjusted as per the calibration tag but fine tuning sometimes becomes necessary.

Make sure your secondary throttle plates are adjusted correctly as if they are too open, it will cause problems going into the transition circuit.

As for timing, the vacuum gauge method is correct as long as you verify the true setting afterwards (not too much advance).

With an engine of this age, you should also verify static timing and ensure the calibration marks on the damper are correct.

davidmij
10-21-2012, 10:56 AM
Hey Gary, how do you "verify static timing and ensure the calibration marks on the damper are correct"? I think Simplyconnected posted it earlier in a different thread but I can't find it.

I got lucky yesterday and found a good autolite 4100 in Albuquerque following a Craigslist add. The guy selling it had bought a mustang a few years ago and the seller gave him the carb with it. I got it for $40 and it's in fantastic shape. He even had a paper with it that showed it was from "Pony carburetors" in Las Cruces NM. (No longer around) It has a lot of dust but looks like it may have already been rebuilt.

Now I can buy a kit, rebuild this one and then just swap it out with my current one and keep it as a parts carb.

gaffney1951
10-21-2012, 03:45 PM
You need to verify TDC on the compression stroke and then mark your damper accordingly. I use a dial indicator with a long extension, but you can also fabricate a piston stop form an old spark plug and follow the procedure that has been posted here in the past. Mike

davidmij
10-21-2012, 10:05 PM
Oh, Ok. I find TDC by turning the crank with a wrench and holding a piece of rigid wire in the plug hole. You can feel a point where it just sits as it goes from up to down. At that point I need to check where my timing degree indicators are, 0, 10, 20, and 30 degrees.

I installed a tachometer today - when I fire up the motor the tac reads the RPM's and moves nice and smooth for about 5-10 seconds, then all of a sudden it starts jumping and twitching. If I rev it the needle doesn't go above 1000. All I can figure is that it's defective.

Dave

KULTULZ
10-22-2012, 05:50 AM
Let me see if I can explain this simply and easily. I GOOGLED TDC and got about fifty different methods to go about this.

You want to find true TDC to determine if the timing graduations on the balancer ring are indexed correctly (possible slipped outer ring). I prefer to use a store bought piston stop as these will have a hole to allow compression to escape while you are turning the engine by hand. It is also a good idea to remove all of the spark plugs to make turning easier. Insert the stop tool (#1 cylinder coming to TDC on compression stroke). Gently turn the crank balancer bolt CW (this is all done with BAT connections removed). When it stops (do not force) mark the balancer at the timing pointer with a daub of white paint. Now turn the balancer bolt in opposite direction until piston stops again. Mark the balancer (at timing pointer).

Go into your old lady's sewing box and get her measuring tape... :D. Measure the distance between the two marked points and the center of this measurement should be TDC on the balancer index. If you actually land on factory OEM TDC, you are home free. If not, suspect a slipped balancer outer ring. Put a daub of white paint at this point and this will become your corrected TDC. If the mark is off, consider having the balancer rebuilt as it will keep moving/slipping.

It is also a good idea if the marks are not at TDC to daub the outer ring and balancer body to see if the outer rings moves in the future. You can also watch these two marks with the timing light and if they seem to move independently of one another, the ring is loose.

Be careful when turning crank CCW so as not to loosen the balancer bolt. If it does loosen, it needs to be re-torqued to spec.

Now this is just a simple in the field method of determining TDC. There are more complicated methods but this method is fine for an OEM street engine (IMO).

Hope that makes sense.

davidmij
10-22-2012, 09:16 AM
That's a set of instructions Gary, thanks for posting them!
I'll try to get it done this coming weekend.

Dave J

KULTULZ
11-02-2012, 05:56 PM
From Another Forum-

57 Ford Kustom

Guys,

I was looking for a kick down arm for my 4100 carb, and was hitting dead ends. I contacted the guy's at www.championmustang.com (http://www.championmustang.com), and they were the best! They informed me that they have carbs available to "part out" and provided me with the part i needed at a great price! The guy's there exhausted all there resources to make sure that the part would fit my application. There supply of parts is limited to what's on hand at the time, so it may not be listed on their web site, so contact them, and they will help!

Tim- http://www.championmustang.com/carburetors-c-72.html

davidmij
11-02-2012, 06:29 PM
Thx Gary, I found a 4100 in Albuquerque that is in really good shape. The guy who had it said it came with a Mustang he bought years ago but he never put it on. It had a tag from Pony Carbs in Las Cruces NM. I'm gonna buy a kit and rebuild it then keep my old one for parts.
I'm putting in a 3.89 3rd member right now. It's from a 68 pickup. It's exactly like my 59 T-bird one. Only one thing missing - I had to drill a fill hole in it and tap it - there was just a flat spot where the hole should have been.
Time to crawl under and lift that pig into place. It's gonna be an SOB by myself. Not sure what this thing weighs but it ain't light!

Dave J

KULTULZ
11-03-2012, 01:40 AM
Do you have a floor jack? Fashion a cradle to hold the asm.

davidmij
11-03-2012, 10:09 AM
How funny, that's exactly what I did. I removed the cup and bolted a 2x6 and and screwed small blocks on both sides to steady it. Went pretty smooth.
Here's a picture of where I had to drill and tap a hole for the fill plug.

thx Gary!

KULTULZ
11-04-2012, 06:29 AM
Hey!

No THANX needed. You are ahead of the game...