View Full Version : 1959 nieman marcus tbird
08-02-2012, 05:40 PM
i bought a 59 tbird in iowa last month and when i brought it back to nebraska the title came up as a nieman marcus edition does anyone know of about a marcus edition in 59? i googled it and have been unable to find out anything about it. I have been restoring the interior and was trying to keep it original it has a 352 w/ a manual 3 speed 2 tone casino creme and raven black top paint scheme which im told is rare. If anyone has any information please email me firstname.lastname@example.org thanks
08-02-2012, 08:45 PM
I believe Ray Clark's car was originally that color combo although his is an automatic. I've never heard of a Nieman Marcus edition and I've seen alot of squarebirds. Certainly any manual trans car is pretty rare.
08-02-2012, 09:27 PM
NM offered a "His and Hers" Tbird in 1970 - that's the earliest I know of and then again in 2001 so I guess it's a slight possibility that it could be a true NM Tbird - now how cool would that be. The last Squarebird manufactured has been discovered right here before our very eyes so why not a special edition....?
As they say on all the shows though - "ya' gotta have the documentation or it's just a good story".
"Neiman Marcus has often offered automobiles in its holiday catalogs. These are usually coordinated with manufacturers as a publicity tool, though the cars themselves are normally special versions unavailable from other sources and produced in limited numbers."
Ray.....you might be able to help........
The "Neiman-Marcus Collection," comprising early account books, advertising and Christmas Catalog layouts, files on charity activities, past awards and presentations, and a collection of Stanley Marcus's personal memorabilia, among many other items, is located in the Texas & Dallas History & Archives Division, 7th Floor, Main Library, Dallas Public Library, where it may be consulted by researchers.
08-02-2012, 09:38 PM
As I recall, there are mentions of Neiman Marcus Tbirds in John Rotella's Tbird Registry. I have also seen this mentioned in other places to. Eric is correct regarding what Neiman Marcus has made available over the years in their holiday catalogs. That, to the best of my knowledge, has included Tbirds. Perhaps John Rotella, Alan Tast, or "Fuz" Johnson can enlighten us some more.
As for the Casino Cream and Black top, yes, that is what Rose was when she left the factory. Along the way, someone decided they did not like the black top and painted it white. I am trying to find the VTCI Scoop report by Alan, as I recall, that gave the breakdown of the number of cars by paint color that he has been able to document. If I can find that Scoop, I will tell you what it says.
I found that VTCI Scoop. For you Squarebird owners who get the VTCI Scoop, it was the March/April 2010 edition that Alan published the VTCI Color Usage Survey, Part 1 - 1958-1960. Some things to remember about this survey that Alan said. "Half the cars in VTCI's database are unknown in terms of color exterior and color/materials for interior. We have only included known listings for the percentage in these surveys." He also said they only used the original colors it left the factory with and not someone's repaint of the car. In addition to this survey, he also did one for the Bulletbirds, and as I recall, the Flairbirds, in subsequent VTCI Scoop's. If you do not have them, you should see if you can find them for your model Tbirds because they will give you a lot of information.
Now, according to this survey, there is only ONE (Mine?) (0.12%) KNOWN '59 Tbird that left the factory with a Casino Cream body and a Black top. But once again, remember, that is the only one that Alan was able to find any documentation on. This included cars that have been scrapped, parted out or still exist today. There must have been more than just 1 with this color combination that he was not able to find the documentation for. But it was still probably pretty rare. In comparison, there are 7 (0.82%)Casino Cream with White tops listed in the survey for '59's. Leonard and Deb Wheeler in North Texas own one of them.
If your Data Plate shows a VA for a color code, then you will have the 2nd one to be documented and I am sure Alan will want that VIN #, and Data Plate information for his records.
08-03-2012, 01:53 PM
I have been doing considerable research this morning in conjunction with this Nieman Marcus Tbird. I hate to tell you this, but only two times has N-M offered Tbirds for sale in their Christmas catalog. 1970 when they sold a pair of 1971 Tbirds for $25,000, and 2001 when they sold 200 2002 Tbirds in two hours time the story goes. That is how Ford introduced the new 2002 Tbird. I have looked at the entire list of car gifts offered for sale since the beginning when they started this. Here are the sources. This one shows it was 1970 when they directly sold a pair of Tbirds for $25,000. A later article states they were 1971 Tbirds.
"Neiman Marcus offered "His and Her" 1971 Thunderbirds
in its 1970 "Christmas Book" ($25,000)"
So there ya go. John Rotella tells me there is no mention of N-M edition cars in his Registry.
08-05-2012, 03:33 PM
i talked to the county clerk/dmv lady who did the title and asked her how come the n.m. edition is on the nebraska title and was not on the iowa title. she looked into it and the state database is showing that title number as being that edition. i asked her where the state gets its info from. she called the capitol and asked while i waited and found out it comes from the automakers themselves so im still stumped as to why i cant find any info on it. i do know that neiman marcus had a big campaign going on starting in 59 of wish list items. any help would be appreciated
08-06-2012, 03:47 AM
Hi Bill, according to that list I posted below, starting in 1959 with their Christmas/Holiday catalog for 1960, the ONLY time they say they ever sold a pair of Tbirds was in their 1970 Christmas/Holiday catalog and that was for a pair of 1971 Tbirds. Those are the ONLY Tbirds ever listed as being sold through the N-M holiday catalog, as you can see in the listing from 1959 to the end of that listing.
However, I have noted that in 2001 there was a promotion regarding the introduction of the 2002 Retrobird that was NOT listed as a "His & Hers" present for 2002. Instead, they ran a special promotion to introduce the new Tbird inside that years catalog, apparently. As you can see by this next item, the 1959 "His & Her" gifts was a Black Angus steer and silver-plated cooker, not a couple of 1959 Tbirds. BUT, it is possible that they ran a special promotion for the 1959 Tbird as they did for the 2002 Tbirds.
"During the 1950's, Neiman Marcus became known for its publicity coups. In 1959, in answer to press inquiries about unusual Christmas gifts, Stanley Marcus and his brother Edward brainstormed about an extraordinary gift for that year: a Black Angus steer, delivered on the hoof or in steaks, complete with a silver-plated cooker. The response was tremendous, and the "His and Her" gifts gained fame the following year with a pair of Beechcraft airplanes. Renowned journalist Edward R. Murrow (and his then-assistant, Walter Cronkite) soon made a point of calling Mr. Marcus directly each year thereafter to learn about the latest outrageous "His and Her" gift. A world-famous retailing phenomenon was born."
In 2001 this was the "His & Hers" special for 2002. 2001 Radio City Rockettes and NY Knicks Fantasy Weekend. $15,000.
I will see if I can get in contact with someone at Neiman-Marcus who knows the history of their Christmas catalog to see what they might have to say about this.
I see you tried to post pix in Our Rides, but that did not work. There are several ways to post pix on this Forum. Please take a look at the Welcome that I posted to you in the New Members Welcoming Forum. If you like, you can email them to me and I will post them for you. Especially a picture of your Data Plate, that kilometer speedometer, the German information plate under the hood and anything else unusual, like a sales invoice or the listing they often tape to the window to show what the car had on it when it was bought.
08-06-2012, 11:05 AM
Have you found a ROT sheet for the car. They are usually under the seats or under the carpets. That may shed some light on what the car was ordered with and whether or not it was a special edition.
08-06-2012, 11:56 PM
Hi Bill, I have been in contact with the one person at N-M who knows the history of the Christmas catalog and has much to do with it. She has been with the company for going on 20 years and knows the contents of what have been offered in it inside out. She tells me that she only knows of two times when Tbirds have been offered for sale by their company. In 1970 in the Christmas catalog for the two His & Hers 1971 Tbirds, and in 2001 when they ran that special in that years catalog for the 200 Retrobirds. She is going to do some research back around 1958-1960 to see if there might have been one or more 1959 Tbirds offered for sale that they have forgotten about. It is possible that there might have been a special promotion in 1958 for the 1959 Tbird(s), but she has never seen anything about it. But she will look and let me know.
We also discussed whether or not Stanley Marcus might have owned a 1959 Tbird, or if the company bought one for his use. Or if one of the other company executives might have owned one. She tells me that there is no way she knows of to find that out. Stanley passed away some years ago and the family that founded the company are all gone. That might be another reason why that title came up as a N-M Edition, but we might never be able to find the proof of that. The factory records for the Squarebirds were destroyed years ago from what I understand.
As for finding your ROT Sheet or Build Sheet as it is also known as, besides being put in the rear seat springs, or back rest, they were also known to have been put in the front seat springs, in the center console, in the glove box, under the dash. They were made from very flimsy paper and after some 50 years, many of them have disentegrated. But if you can find yours, it is an important piece of paper because it tells you what all they put on that Tbird when they made it.
08-14-2012, 05:08 PM
i still havent found a rot sheet i talked to my upholsterer he remembers a paper hes going to look and see if it in his shop trash can checked in all the other spots havent found one yet
08-14-2012, 05:38 PM
Oh man..... If he threw the ROT sheet away!!! :eek:
08-14-2012, 06:36 PM
Here's my ROT (build sheet) and what your upholster is looking for. Yep - pretty sad if he threw it away. May be the only documentation left linking the two.
About 3.5 x 8.5
Ray - excellent idea on one of the NM founders owning the Tbird thus the NM info on the title. I can see it could have been easily titled to owner/company (maybe for tax purposes etc).
08-14-2012, 07:16 PM
Thanks, Eric, and thanks on posting the information on "The Neiman-Marcus Collection" and where it is that you posted. I have asked one of our members who lives in that area to do some research for us and see if he can find any reference in those records of any of the NM leadership having owned a '59 Tbird. I will let ya'll know what he has to say...
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