PDA

View Full Version : Need advice on getting this old bird started up.


NYsquarebird58
02-10-2012, 04:47 PM
About a week ago I picked up this 58’ Thunderbird. You can check out my introduction thread below.

http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12460

The previous owner had her for about two or three years and claimed that he had fired her up, but she ran poorly due to the points being bad. Before that, I believe the car hasn’t been run in 20 years.

I was hoping to get her running and road worthy so that I can cruise around this summer before I dig in to the full restoration I have planned.

So far I've ordered the following parts:

Distributor cap
Distributor points
Condenser
Coil
Spark plugs
Air cleaner and filter

I will be placing an order for:

Spark plug wires
Fuel pump
Engine coolant
Engine oil
Oil filter
Battery

I plan on draining the oil, pulling the plugs and spraying WD-40 in the cylinders. Then I’ll pull the valve covers off and poor some engine oil over the valve train. Once I’ve topped off the fluids, I’ll prime the engine by hand. I will also replace the old coolant and coolant lines as needed.

Is there anything else you guys can think of that I’m missing? Any other parts I should get?

Below are pics of my engine compartment. I’m not familiar with these old birds, so if there’s anything out of place or missing, I’d appreciate the heads up.

Many thanks to “simplyconnected” (Dave) for the materials he’s shared with me.


http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2598.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2600.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2601.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2602.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2603.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2604.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2605.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2606.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2607.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2608.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2609.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2610.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2611.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2612.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2613.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2614.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2615.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2616.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2621.jpg

Thanks!

simplyconnected
02-10-2012, 06:49 PM
One of the best things you're doing is fogging your cylinders with WD-40. Consider the badly needed ZDDP (zinc dithiophosphate) for flat tappets, that they took out of modern engine oil. As a substitute, I use Rotella-T (15W-40). It has enough zinc. Google 'ZDDP' and find out what other classic restorers are using. Try to find the most recent info because the oil companies keep lowering phosphate for the EPA.

I find, most oils with 40 (or above) in the numbers already have what we need (at least 1,000-parts per million), and no additives are necessary. - Dave

redstangbob
02-10-2012, 07:07 PM
It looks like the fuel line from the pump to the carb has been cut up and a piece of rubber line installed. That should be replaced. The old 4100 carb is looking nasty!! If you don't want to put a kit in it before you start it up, at least have a fire gun handy. Fuel tanks that sit for years with fuel in them are often loaded with rust and garbage, the fuel pick up will clog up fast. I'd drain and drop the tank now, I bet you're going to do it sooner or later. Good luck, Bob C

simplyconnected
02-10-2012, 08:01 PM
Now, I have this in TWO threads (just to be sure).

I agree with redstangbob about checking the tank for old gas.

You can smell that distinctive varnish odor, before and after it burns. Better look under the trunk mat, pull the cover off, and look down your tank with a flashlight. Depending on how old, it could have left all kinds of varnish. And guess what... our new gasohol slowly breaks it up, sending pieces to your fuel pump.

You can stick a hose from your fuel pump into a gas can, just to err on the side of caution. This might be a good idea because it's time to change your rubber fuel line, anyway. - Dave

NYsquarebird58
02-10-2012, 09:58 PM
It looks like the fuel line from the pump to the carb has been cut up and a piece of rubber line installed. That should be replaced. The old 4100 carb is looking nasty!! If you don't want to put a kit in it before you start it up, at least have a fire gun handy. Fuel tanks that sit for years with fuel in them are often loaded with rust and garbage, the fuel pick up will clog up fast. I'd drain and drop the tank now, I bet you're going to do it sooner or later. Good luck, Bob C

Do I actually have the original (or correct) carburetor? I was having trouble identifying it.

Newby question: where's the fuel filter located? is it in the carb or somewhere down the fuel line?

When you mention a "kit", I assume you mean a rebuild kit with a new float and seals. Are these difficult to rebuild like some Rochesters.

NYsquarebird58
02-10-2012, 10:00 PM
Now, I have this in TWO threads (just to be sure).

I agree with redstangbob about checking the tank for old gas.

You can smell that distinctive varnish odor, before and after it burns. Better look under the trunk mat, pull the cover off, and look down your tank with a flashlight. Depending on how old, it could have left all kinds of varnish. And guess what... our new gasohol slowly breaks it up, sending pieces to your fuel pump.

You can stick a hose from your fuel pump into a gas can, just to err on the side of caution. This might be a good idea because it's time to change your rubber fuel line, anyway. - Dave

Wow, I didn't realize I could access the gas tank from the trunk. That'll make draining the tank with a siphon that much easier.

DKheld
02-10-2012, 10:04 PM
Saw the first post but didn't have a chance to respond before I saw this one so I'll start here by saying that it looks like that Tbird has found a great new home. Glad to see the care you're putting forth already.

Think you have all the bases covered. The fuel pump lever rides on the cam and can be a little bit of a pain to re-install but just keep at it and eventually you'll hit the magic spot. There are still a lot of major parts you can get local at NAPA, O'Riley, Advance or other major parts houses and save shipping. I just rebuilt my 4100 carb like yours and that will make a world of difference. Got the main kit at O'Riley but it does not come with the secondary lever or diaphragm which I purchased at NAPA. The instructions in the carb kit were good.

Just an observation (guess) but I think the block has been replaced with a 390 (or maybe a rebuilt 352). The 352 did not have the heat shields on the exhaust manifolds and something looks strange about the oil sending unit. I'm thinking maybe they put the 352 intake back on the 390 block. The 352 intake has the road draft port and most 390's did not. The road draft port was plumbed to the plate (added) under the carb. That's why there are only a few threads on the bolts holding the carb. (it has the standard 352 carb posts with the plate added and the carb should be bolted directly to the intake - no plate). Somethings wanky about the throttle lever. Another reason I'm thinking it is a 390 is the alternator and all associated bracketry is 390 style. The 352 had a generator mounted low. The fan has been replaced with a flex type fan. The original block color would be black - not blue.

Nothing really important that wouldn't prevent it from running but just observation and not trying to be critical just pointing out what I see.

I'm sure you'll get it running quickly.

Great pictures and the posts are great - hope to see more. Hope I can help in some way.

Eric
registry 5437
http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdatasheet.aspx?RegistryNumber=5347

NYsquarebird58
02-10-2012, 10:18 PM
DKheld, this is all really great info - thank you! How can I determine whether or not I have a 390? Are there numbers casted on the block or heads?

SO I do in fact have an alternator and not a generator? (I cant tell the difference by looking at them)

Saw the first post but didn't have a chance to respond before I saw this one so I'll start here by saying that it looks like that Tbird has found a great new home. Glad to see the care you're putting forth already.

Think you have all the bases covered. The fuel pump lever rides on the cam and can be a little bit of a pain to re-install but just keep at it and eventually you'll hit the magic spot. There are still a lot of major parts you can get local at NAPA, O'Riley, Advance or other major parts houses and save shipping. I just rebuilt my 4100 carb like yours and that will make a world of difference. Got the main kit at O'Riley but it does not come with the secondary lever or diaphragm which I purchased at NAPA. The instructions in the carb kit were good.

Just an observation (guess) but I think the block has been replaced with a 390 (or maybe a rebuilt 352). The 352 did not have the heat shields on the exhaust manifolds and something looks strange about the oil sending unit. I'm thinking maybe they put the 352 intake back on the 390 block. The 352 intake has the road draft port and most 390's did not. The road draft port was plumbed to the plate (added) under the carb. That's why there are only a few threads on the bolts holding the carb. (it has the standard 352 carb posts with the plate added and the carb should be bolted directly to the intake - no plate). Somethings wanky about the throttle lever. Another reason I'm thinking it is a 390 is the alternator and all associated bracketry is 390 style. The 352 had a generator mounted low. The fan has been replaced with a flex type fan. The original block color would be black - not blue.

Nothing really important that wouldn't prevent it from running but just observation and not trying to be critical just pointing out what I see.

I'm sure you'll get it running quickly.

Great pictures and the posts are great - hope to see more. Hope I can help in some way.

Eric
registry 5437
http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdatasheet.aspx?RegistryNumber=5347

DKheld
02-10-2012, 10:48 PM
"Super Dave" has a great easy way - hopefully he won't mind me stealing his explanation. This only tells you if the crank is a 390 but if the crank is a 390 you would think the block is and that should explain all the differences in accessories. Also just noticed the water pump pulley looks like a 390. The 390 and 352 were mostly the same so it really doesn't make any difference. It may make a difference if you have to buy a water pump. Possibly you have a 352 truck motor. Really hard to tell them apart but as I mentioned - doesn't make much difference.

The fuel filter on an original 352 was down at the pump - a glass bowl style. I'll post a pic of my 352 - mostly the same as a '58 but mine is a '60. The 60's had yellow valve covers where as the '58's were black like yours. Brake lines and shocks were different on the '58's as well as the rear coil spring suspension only on the '58. The 60's had the fuel filter at the carb - a one year only thing.

From Dave.....

"One way I use is:
Put your timing marks on TDC. Remove #1 & #4 spark plugs. (When #1 is up, #4 is down).
Using a welding rod or a dowel, put the rod down #1 spark plug hole and mark it at the valve cover flange. Then, stick it down #4 spark plug hole and mark it again, using the valve cover flange.

Pull the dowel out and measure between your marks. Because there is a 1/2" difference between a 352 and a 390, if the distance between your marks is more than 3-1/2", it couldn't possibly be a 352. If the difference is 3.75" it IS a 390/427 crank.

If you want an exact measurement, pull the head off and measure from the block deck using the same method. - Dave

Edit: You may not have your crank on TDC when measuring, which will give you a false reading."


Eric
http://media10.dropshots.com/photos/260234/20110217/b_192901.jpg

NYsquarebird58
02-10-2012, 10:55 PM
Just to confirm (and so I can sleep tonight) all the parts I ordered that I mentioned in my first post will still work regardless of whether or not it is a 390.

Any cons to the 390 over the 352?

Whats the brand of the carburetor It's a _______ 4100 series? I want to see if i can order a rebuild kit.

DKheld
02-10-2012, 11:11 PM
Think they should. You have the fuel pump with the vacuum booster on top (those 2 posts sticking up) that boosts vacuum for the wipers although it appears the outermost is not hooked up. That port would normally go to the manifold vacuum port and the one closet to the water pump would find it's way to the firewall via a hard line then through by a hose to the vacuum wiper motor inside under the dash.
Advance Auto fuel pump part #3461

No cons at all I can think of.

It is a Ford Autolite 4100 - made by FoMoCo! I'll get you the kit numbers as soon as I can. Got my kit local.

Alternators are generally shorter than generators (which is how it can be mounted up high). It appears yours is externally regulated by the square box on the drivers front firewall above the Aoooga horn (which you need to give to a Model A owner). These old Tbirds had a dual note set of horns that sound beautiful - wish I had a set to send you.

Eric

NYsquarebird58
02-10-2012, 11:33 PM
Thanks again for all the info Eric. There's a medium sized box in the trunk that I have yet to dig through, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing something that at least resembles a horn. I'll go through it tomorrow and report back.

Marcelo

Think they should. You have the fuel pump with the vacuum booster on top (those 2 posts sticking up) that boosts vacuum for the wipers although it appears the outermost is not hooked up. That port would normally go to the manifold vacuum port and the one closet to the water pump would find it's way to the firewall via a hard line then through by a hose to the vacuum wiper motor inside under the dash.
Advance Auto fuel pump part #3461

No cons at all I can think of.

It is a Ford Autolite 4100 - made by FoMoCo! I'll get you the kit numbers as soon as I can. Got my kit local.

Alternators are generally shorter than generators (which is how it can be mounted up high). It appears yours is externally regulated by the square box on the drivers front firewall above the Aoooga horn (which you need to give to a Model A owner). These old Tbirds had a dual note set of horns that sound beautiful - wish I had a set to send you.

Eric

simplyconnected
02-11-2012, 12:03 AM
http://squarebirds.org/NYsquarebird58/IMG_2598a.jpg
You may be using this Voltage Regulator (see inset). I need a better picture, but it looks like a 6-wire, external regulator, used on early alternators. If it turns out you aren't using it and your alt has an internal regulator, do as Eric suggests and remove this one.
http://squarebirds.org/NYsquarebird58/IMG_2600a.jpg
The red arrow is your present fuel filter (at least you have one). The original one was mounted at the fuel pump (green arrow).
http://squarebirds.org/NYsquarebird58/IMG_2608a.jpg
The red arrow is your alternator. I am impressed with the wire sizes on your battery. #2AWG (American Wire Gauge) is serious business.

NYsquarebird58
02-11-2012, 12:09 AM
Looks a generic in-line fuel filter. I'll pick one up tomorrow. I'll also take some better pics of the voltage regulator and the alternator.

Is there anything else you can think of that you want better pics of?

Thanks for the pictorial - it makes it much easier for me to identify things. :)

NYsquarebird58
02-11-2012, 12:29 AM
Came across this interesting article which discusses the differences in the different FE engines:

http://www.mre-books.com/interchange/interchange11.html

frank58
02-11-2012, 10:34 AM
something you could take a quick look at just to add info is to see if there is an engine assy date stamped on it.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/woodstocker1/Eng_date_code.jpg
Does anyone know if later models also had the same date stamp?

redstangbob
02-11-2012, 01:14 PM
The assembly date stamp would have been used at least into the 67-68 model year when the fed asked for the vin to be stamped in the engine. I've seen lots of flairbirds with the assy number stamped on the pad.

NYsquarebird58
02-11-2012, 01:24 PM
It's hard to tell from the picture above. Where on the engine would I find this stamp?

YellowRose
02-11-2012, 01:37 PM
Look at your oil dipstick. Look down by the tube and you should see that very small rectangle shaped piece. The number should be on it. I had to clean mine off to see the number. I think it is there, but I could not tell for sure. It is a hard place to get to with a rag to clean that area off. Now, if that is a 390 engine and not a 352, I am not sure it will be there. The picture was for a Squarebird with a 352 engine.

Harry LePargneux
02-11-2012, 01:56 PM
I used a carb kit from Tomco (suggestion by Carl Heller) which included the secondary diaphram and cost about $24.00. Most other kits do not include the secondary diaphram. This kit comes with a good set of directions and is easy to install. I don't remember the kit number, but if you call them; a technician can help you.

NYsquarebird58
02-11-2012, 02:45 PM
http://squarebirds.org/NYsquarebird58/IMG_2598a.jpg
You may be using this Voltage Regulator (see inset). I need a better picture, but it looks like a 6-wire, external regulator, used on early alternators. If it turns out you aren't using it and your alt has an internal regulator, do as Eric suggests and remove this one.

Here are some better pics of the voltage regulator. I don't see a model number on it like on GM versions. I'll have to pop it off and see if there are any number on the back.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2659.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2660.jpg

DKheld
02-11-2012, 07:35 PM
Here are the numbers for the carb kits I used - Harry is right the main carb kit did not contain the secondary diapraham and rod so I got those seprately. Not sure where he got the Tomco kit or the part # but mine were local (no shipping). I did use gas to go get them so about evenly priced I guess.

Main Carb kit from O'Riley - Walker brand - 15255 - $18.99

Secondary Diapraham and rod - NAPA - Echlin brand - 2-4241 - $9.45

That fuel filter is a generic type but I like them. I actually have one on my car before the fuel pump. You can take them apart, clean them and re-use.

Eric

simplyconnected
02-11-2012, 07:35 PM
Yep, you are definately using this Voltage Regulator so don't take it off.

Someone added this retrofit a very long time ago. This looks like an Electronic Voltage Regulator (made by Standard). Take a better picture of the wires on the bottom. It is probably wired like the diagram below, but I don't see the small Yellow/Black wire that should go to your GEN light. I can faintly see the letters molded into the plastic (I A+ S F).

NYsquarebird58
02-11-2012, 10:59 PM
Here are the numbers for the carb kits I used - Harry is right the main carb kit did not contain the secondary diapraham and rod so I got those seprately. Not sure where he got the Tomco kit or the part # but mine were local (no shipping). I did use gas to go get them so about evenly priced I guess.

Main Carb kit from O'Riley - Walker brand - 15255 - $18.99

Secondary Diapraham and rod - NAPA - Echlin brand - 2-4241 - $9.45

That fuel filter is a generic type but I like them. I actually have one on my car before the fuel pump. You can take them apart, clean them and re-use.

Eric


Thank you for the part numbers. Should I also get the floats? Or do they usually not go bad.

NYsquarebird58
02-12-2012, 01:58 PM
Yep, you are definately using this Voltage Regulator so don't take it off.

Someone added this retrofit a very long time ago. This looks like an Electronic Voltage Regulator (made by Standard). Take a better picture of the wires on the bottom. It is probably wired like the diagram below, but I don't see the small Yellow/Black wire that should go to your GEN light. I can faintly see the letters molded into the plastic (I A+ S F).


Here are some more detailed pics of the voltage regulator:

The letters by the terminals read: I A S F and the unit is made by Standard. I am having no luck finding a replacement. I think I A S F is just a reference to the terminals and not a part number. Any idea what would be a suitable replacement?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/DPP_0008.jpg

Hereís the plug. Summit racing offers a replacement pigtail which I will be ordering because the terminals look rather corroded. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SMP-S94/
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/DPP_0001.jpg

I definitely want to replace this unit. The terminals are all rusty.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/DPP_0002.jpg

I forget what this thing is called, but I always replace them when I change out a voltage regulator. I think it cuts down on electrical interference when using the radio.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/DPP_0007.jpg

Hereís closer shot of the alternator. Iíd like to replace this also. Can I get any Ford externally regulated alternator as long as it is rated the same amps as the factory generator?
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/DPP_0004.jpg

Looks like a junction point
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/DPP_0003.jpg

I havenít a clue what this box is.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/DPP_0005.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/DPP_0006.jpg

simplyconnected
02-12-2012, 03:12 PM
Whoa... slow down... Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Clean up those contacts and put it back together. That alt may be old but it puts out TWICE the power as your original generator. AND, it probably works just fine for what you need right now. These parts are still sold at your auto parts store, but don't buy any. 'Standard' makes aftermarket electrical parts for the big three (and everyone else).

The cylinder with the wire is a condenser (capacitor- .22-uf) and it probably works just fine, too. You can measure capacitance with most good modern meters. They put these anywhere electricity cycles on-and-off (like at your points).

If you can't get your alt to work as it is, don't buy any parts. Only spend it on a new-type alternator that has an INTERNAL voltage regulator. Don't buy a one-wire, either. I like getting mine from the bone yard because they throw them out daily. For fifty bucks you can have a 130-amp Ford alternator, and use it on an electric fan (if that's what you want).

This...
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/DPP_0005.jpg
is a relay box (for power windows, etc.) and is supposed to have a self-resetting circuit breaker where that Yellow wire is.

This...
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/DPP_0003.jpg
is your starter solenoid. Disconnect the battery lead, take the solenoid off, and clean it good. The chassis is your ground on this device and you don't need rust,scale, or paint to interfere with a good connection. I like the #2 wires they used. Yes, the battery side is a junction for power to everything. Notice only one wire on one side... the starter motor wire. So the battery side is hot all the time, but the other side is only hot when the key is turned to 'start'. - Dave

NYsquarebird58
02-12-2012, 03:40 PM
OK Dave. I wont throw anything out just yet :)

Thanks for telling me about the "mystery" box on the firewall. Now I'll know what to check if my windows don't work.

My ducks are just about in a row. Once I finish collecting some more parts and there's a warm enough day to work outside. I'll see if I cant get this old girl running.

simplyconnected
02-12-2012, 04:26 PM
I just did a teardown on a 390. Part of 'restoring' means that you don't throw ANYTHING away until you are satisfied things are running the way you want. Lots of pictures and old parts, tell us loads of reference info.

Yeah, get it going first, and address each little 'thing' that needs to be restored, later. Did you check your fuel tank? Do that first (and keep open flames far away). - Dave

EDIT: Just last October, kevin_tbird had problems with his Power Seat circuit. He took a fantastic picture of what that relay should look like. Here it is:
http://squarebirds.org/Electrical/PowerWindows/PWindRelay.jpg
The posts are a bit rusty, but you get the idea. Here's the schematic which includes this relay:
http://squarebirds.org/Electrical/PowerWindows/1958-60TbirdPwrWindDiag.jpg

YellowRose
02-12-2012, 06:37 PM
Like Dave, I am concerned about you starting your engine, Marcelo, without taking some precautions first. Unless you have drained that gas tank, taken it off, had it flushed out and treated, and put it back on, I would not put any gas in that tank and then try to start your engine. Any junk in that tank could be sucked up the gas line to the fuel pump, clog it up, or let it go through into your carb... If it were me, I would put some gas in a big glass jar or other container, and run a hose from it to the input side of your fuel pump and draw clean gas from it to see if the engine will kick over. If I am wrong about this, someone with more knowledge than I can knock me up along side the head for suggesting this.

My point is, IF you have a working fuel pump, and carb, you don't want to suck what gunk you might have in that gas tank into your fuel pump or carb and foul them up... If you have drained the tank, had it cleaned and treated, and back on the car, then draw your gas from it. I had to replace my gas tank with one that I got from one of our members here. Before I put it on, I took it to a local company that specializes in cleaning and treating gas tanks and they cleaned it out for me. Unfortunately, a couple of years later, this tank developed a leak, and I bought a new one.

NYsquarebird58
02-12-2012, 07:29 PM
I just did a teardown on a 390. Part of 'restoring' means that you don't throw ANYTHING away until you are satisfied things are running the way you want. Lots of pictures and old parts, tell us loads of reference info.

Yeah, get it going first, and address each little 'thing' that needs to be restored, later. Did you check your fuel tank? Do that first (and keep open flames far away). - Dave

EDIT: Just last October, kevin_tbird had problems with his Power Seat circuit. He took a fantastic picture of what that relay should look like. Here it is:
http://squarebirds.org/Electrical/PowerWindows/PWindRelay.jpg
The posts are a bit rusty, but you get the idea. Here's the schematic which includes this relay:
http://squarebirds.org/Electrical/PowerWindows/1958-60TbirdPwrWindDiag.jpg

I havenít looked at the tank just yet but my plan is this:

Since thereís a drain plug on these tanks and an access panel up top in the trunk; I was thinking of pulling the drain plug, draining the tank and sticking a garden hose through the access hole and flush out the crud. Do you think thatíd be a good enough method?

I will eventually be putting in a new tank, but I was hoping to do so after I have the whole undercarriage stripped repaired and painted. If you guys think that the method I mentioned above is still risky, than I will put a new tank at the top of my list.



On an unrelated note:

I changed out the gas tank on a 70 Buick GS I had. It was a pain. There was no drain plug, so the only way to drain the tank was with a pump siphon, and even using that, I couldnít get all the gas out. The reason why I had to drop the tank was because my sending unit failed. If there was an access panel in the trunk (like Iím picturing in the T-Bird) I could have replaced the sending unit without draining and dropping the tank. The new tank did not come with the filler neck, so I had to get the old one welded on. Sounds like this whole deal is going to be easier on the T-Bird. I wonder why automakers seem to have gone backwards in that regard? In the 50ís they had drain plugs and access panels and in the 70ís they decided to make things difficult.

I checked out your 390 project "Penelope" Good stuff!

NYsquarebird58
02-12-2012, 07:29 PM
Like Dave, I am concerned about you starting your engine, Marcelo, without taking some precautions first. Unless you have drained that gas tank, taken it off, had it flushed out and treated, and put it back on, I would not put any gas in that tank and then try to start your engine. Any junk in that tank could be sucked up the gas line to the fuel pump, clog it up, or let it go through into your carb... If it were me, I would put some gas in a big glass jar or other container, and run a hose from it to the input side of your fuel pump and draw clean gas from it to see if the engine will kick over. If I am wrong about this, someone with more knowledge than I can knock me up along side the head for suggesting this.

My point is, IF you have a working fuel pump, and carb, you don't want to suck what gunk you might have in that gas tank into your fuel pump or carb and foul them up... If you have drained the tank, had it cleaned and treated, and back on the car, then draw your gas from it. I had to replace my gas tank with one that I got from one of our members here. Before I put it on, I took it to a local company that specializes in cleaning and treating gas tanks and they cleaned it out for me. Unfortunately, a couple of years later, this tank developed a leak, and I bought a new one.

Ray, I learned my lesson a long time ago regarding the fuel systems on cars that have sat for years. About 14 years ago I picked up a 67 Ford Galexie 500 4 door. She was a creampuff; not a spec of rust and only 42k on the clock. The only problem was she hadn’t been run in about 18 years. I changed the oil, popped in a new battery, gave the car a tune up and got her running. Well…it only took two days before the Galexie left me on the side of the road (the first time). First it was the carburetor – it got clogged up. The second time the Galexie left me stranded was when the fuel pump failed and then of course there was the time that I blew a radiator hose. Looking back; it was kind of funny having that thing towed back to my parents house every other day but I guess that’s how you learn.

Here are a couple of shots the 67 Galexie (my first Ford)

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/IMGA4874.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/IMGA4875.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/IMGA4873.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/IMGA4887.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/IMGA4888.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/IMGA4885.jpg

I was allot skinnier back then!

simplyconnected
02-12-2012, 09:15 PM
Nice job! Nobody can tell whether the tank should be changed until you actually LOOK. Simply draining (which is a good start) won't get that black varnish out. Water won't either. Gasohol will, right at a time when you don't want it to.

There is also a screen at the end of your pickup tube. If this gets clogged, your engine will stop. Then, the fuel in your line will backwash it free again. Remember, crap inside has nowhere to go. I pulled FIVE HANDFULLS of rust out of my '55 Customline's tank, but it never leaked. Yeah... I ended up changing it. The new tank was exactly like the original including a drain plug in the corner (and a filler neck). New tanks have a tin coating inside and out. All the claims out there from 'Creme' to 'Wilwood' can't beat it; some sealers successfully clog your pickup screen.

I don't throw good parts at a car unless they really need it. Your tank may be clean. I just don't know because I can't see from this chair in Michigan. If you see crap, drain and pull the tank before your fuel lines become victim. There is a negative pressure on your fuel system. It doesn't take much to stop flow (like a loose hose connection) before you start sucking air.

Some of the guys put a filter just before the pump and another right after. If you filter before the pump, use a very large filter for low restriction.

These cars should be rock-reliable. Take your whole family from coast to coast and not worry about mechanical breakdown. They are built like tanks, designed for washboard county roads that we all had. - Dave

NYsquarebird58
02-13-2012, 04:32 PM
I decided itís not worth the hassle or risk of cleaning the old tank so Iím ordering a new one. I will also be ordering a new sending unit, tank straps and hardware. Is there anything else Iím missing?


Once I pull the tank out I plan on running compressed air down the fuel line (past the pump) to ensure that there is no crud stuck in the lines.


Also, that carb of mine looks like it would need a rebuild. Iíve never taken apart a carb and am weary about learning on this one. If I mess up on the rebuild itíll be a nightmare for me to figure out what went wrong and why the car wonít start. Would any of you have any suggestions on who would be a good resource to rebuild my carb and what would be a fair price to pay? I would rather leave it the hands of a member if at all possible.

simplyconnected
02-13-2012, 05:30 PM
See if you can beat this price from rockauto.com

SPECTRA PREMIUM Part # F35 Lock Ring Kit Included
38-1/8" x 20-1/4" x 9"
http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=261966&imageurl=http%3A//info.rockauto.com/SPI/F35_TOP_P04.jpg
$195.79 + shipping

EDIT: Try using this coupon code for an extra 5% off:
78165015134852
Hope this helps. - Dave

NYsquarebird58
02-13-2012, 05:59 PM
See if you can beat this price from rockauto.com

SPECTRA PREMIUM Part # F35 Lock Ring Kit Included
38-1/8" x 20-1/4" x 9"

$195.79 + shipping

This one, from ebay, that claims to be Canadian is $184.95 + $45.00 shipping ($229.95)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130647343969?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

The Rock Auto version is $195.79 + $11.75 shipping (207.54). Thatís a savings of $22.41


As long as I can confirm that the Rock Auto version is Canadian, Iíll jump on that one. Iím just not sure because Rock Auto offers two versions: their ďRegular InventoryĒ for $195.00 and their ďPrivate LabelĒ for $209.79. Coincidentally, when you check off the ďPrivate LabelĒ, it bumps the

shipping up to $18.95 for a grand total of $228.74.


I wonder what the difference is between the ďRegular InventoryĒ and the ďPrivate LabelĒ Could one be the Asian knock off and the other the Canadian version?

YellowRose
02-13-2012, 07:21 PM
The Spectra Premium tank IS Canadian made, as is the Private Label one. Spectra Premium company is in Canada. I checked out their website. The difference between the two is in the packaging. The Private Label one has different packaging. Everyone that I know of who has bought one of their gas tanks, buys the Regular Inventory one. My tank came from Spectra and in fact, I think they are the main gas tank manufacturer for Tbird gas tanks.

DKheld
02-14-2012, 11:40 AM
Purchased a replacement gas tank for my Tbird from the guy on ebay (MQP products). It was Canadian made. Fit perfectly using the old straps - even the original gas cap fit. I think they are selling with a rubber seal for the sending unit now however mine came with a cork seal and new metal ring - worked fine but used gasket sealer to be sure of no leaks. Cost was $209 delivered.

Before that I had my original tank boiled and plasti-coated trying to keep the original tank but still had trouble with fuel delivery. Replaced the line from the tank to the pump, filter etc. I have been told that the plasti-coat breaks down with the ethanol in the fuel these days so that is a possibility. Cost about $125 to have the tank boiled and coated - thought I was saving money - ha.

No trouble at all since installing the new tank.


Eric

simplyconnected
02-14-2012, 07:59 PM
How long ago was that, Eric?

DKheld
02-14-2012, 08:22 PM
Yikes - time flies when your spending money - that was 3/2009. Cost was $165 +tax and $40 shipping.

Eric

simplyconnected
02-14-2012, 11:10 PM
Yeah, that's about right... This one turned out to be just under $200 delivered to his door.

NYsquarebird58
02-15-2012, 08:19 AM
I just places an order for a new gas tank from Rock Auto as well as a bunch of other parts. I've never ordered from them before but I gotta tell ya, there prices are very competitive.

This promotional code is good until 2/17: C7443AD625AA It'l get you 5% off your order. Once that one expires just google a new code. It looks like Rock Auto changes them regularly.

NYsquarebird58
02-15-2012, 11:44 AM
I wanted to order a thermostat, but there are several choices and they range from 170-195 degrees. What temperature should I choose?

YellowRose
02-15-2012, 12:16 PM
Hi Marcelo, There are a number of threads discussing the benefits or drawbacks of different ranges of thermostats. Using the "Search" feature on our Forum in the black border, I did a search on "Thermostats" and came up with this one which I thought was a really good one on 160 vs 180 thermostats. The consensus is, to my understanding that a lot of our members are using 180 thermostats with no problems. Some think that 160 can be to low. Read through this link and I think it will help you.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2336&highlight=Thermostat&page=2

In regards to Rock Auto, they are good people to do business with. They are one of the vendors who give discounts, and they are also a member of this Forum. As a Paid Member you can check out their posts under the Members Conference Forum.. You will also see special offers that are available to our Paid Membership there by our vendors or other Paid Members.

NYsquarebird58
02-15-2012, 12:52 PM
Hi Marcelo, There are a number of threads discussing the benefits or drawbacks of different ranges of thermostats. Using the "Search" feature on our Forum in the black border, I did a search on "Thermostats" and came up with this one which I thought was a really good one on 160 vs 180 thermostats. The consensus is, to my understanding that a lot of our members are using 180 thermostats with no problems. Some think that 160 can be to low. Read through this link and I think it will help you.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2336&highlight=Thermostat&page=2

In regards to Rock Auto, they are good people to do business with. They are one of the vendors who give discounts, and they are also a member of this Forum. As a Paid Member you can check out their posts under the Members Conference Forum.. You will also see special offers that are available to our Paid Membership there by our vendors or other Paid Members.

Ray, thanks for posting that thread. It looks like 180 degrees is the way to go for my application. I placed a big order with Rock Auto this morning so when that comes in I’ll have most of the parts needed to get the Thunderbird running.


For the most part, I’ve done my ordering online. I’ve ordered from Summit Racing, Rock Auto and Concourse parts. The last few bits like all the belts, hoses, rubber fuel lines, hose clamps, battery, thermostat and fluids I’ll pick up at the local auto parts store.


We’re getting close and I’m hoping for a warm dry weekend in the next few weeks.

davidmij
02-15-2012, 01:24 PM
Yes, Rock Auto IS very competitive. When I did my front disc brake job on my 59 I got almost everything from them - thx to Mr Dare and the others who compiled the spreadsheet with comparative pricing.
My 59 had sat for 15 years and the tank was pretty rusted. I pulled it, cleaned it with acetone and gravel and it was still rusty. I've been using it as is, but once I put the new motor in I'm going to buy a new tank - don't want to risk running the dirty fuel through it.

simplyconnected
02-15-2012, 02:35 PM
Huh? Someone mention my name?
Hey, since we're all paid members, did you see my money saving post regarding brake lines in the Members Only Forum? If not, go over there and check it out. - Dave

NYsquarebird58
02-15-2012, 02:55 PM
Huh? Someone mention my name?
Hey, since we're all paid members, did you see my money saving post regarding brake lines in the Members Only Forum? If not, go over there and check it out. - Dave

I have to admit. Iíve never overhauled brakes before, but Iím getting excited about doing them on the Bird.


And thanks to Dave for talking me out of towing the bird to the mechanic and doing them myself. The money Iíll save there will be put to better use someplace else.

NYsquarebird58
02-15-2012, 03:44 PM
I have a question regarding jacking. I want to get the T-Bird completely off the ground, but I want to do so in a safe way and in such a manner that I can leave the car safely on jack stands for an extended period of time. Typically on a frame-on car, I would jack up the car from the frame and place the jack stands on the frame just in front of the rear wheels and just behind the front wheels. Since this is a unibody car and my rocker panels are rusty, I donít think it would be a good idea to support the car from these areas.

I was thinking that my jacking procedure would go something like this:

1.) Slide the jack underneath the rear differential and raise the car
2.) Place jack strands underneath the axle tubes and lower the car.
3.) Slide the jack underneath the front cross member and raise the car
4.) Place jack stands where???

tbirds8
02-15-2012, 04:16 PM
There are pictures in the shop manual of were to place stands. I used the rear and a piece of 2 by 4 by 6 in front of the doors out at the edge. I got those big stands at harbor freight. Replaced all my brake lines with stainless steel. That's before Dave came up with this. Left there quiet awhile. Did every thing shoes springs exc. exc. exc. Stops like they did when new. Which ain't fantastic.

simplyconnected
02-15-2012, 05:27 PM
Bill, your Grandma sure did have fine taste in cars.

Regarding lifting, Bill is on the money; always refer to the Shop Manual. Even though this is a unibody car, it still uses a sub-frame system in the front and in the rear. That's what the suspension hangs from.

Lift your car OFF the suspension and put your jack stands under the frame rails in front and in the rear. If you think your rockers are too badly rusted to support the sub-frames, I wouldn't drive it before installing good steel in those rockers.

It's important to let your suspension hang, while jack stands support solid frame members. Before gettin under ANY car, give the raised body a good shake. It should feel rock-solid.

Now, what's this very ugly rumor about a MK2? I was going to write, Toyo.. Toy... Never mind, it's too upsetting. - Dave

tmjsong1aolcom
02-16-2012, 08:24 AM
Based on my memory the carb on your bird has been replaced with a later model 4100. Look next to the foot by the dash pod. On the foot should be stamped a serie of 4 or 5 numbers and letters. If the foot is stamped then you definately do not have 58 carby. Look at the side of the fuel bowl in the same location. There might be 112 embossed in a circle. If not do you find any other series of numbers. Usually a 58 had a 6 digit series of numbers starting with a 5 as I remember.

The carb sits on top of 2 spacer plates from what I can tell. One looks like the original which a narrow black phenolic type spacer plate. The other one which has the breather tube from the rear of the engine running in to it. This breather tube spacer was not used on 58-60 birds. 58's did not use PCV valves or any other type of crancase ventilation except when you go down the road air is picked up thru the oil filler cap and tube a run thru the engine out the breather tube. Your tube has been cut off.
As these engines aged you would get oil funes comming out the breather tubes when idling and going slow.

I will plug the current version of the VTCI rules again as most of the info you are seeking has been documented in these pages. Please understand that these were written by diaesed tbird owners and we made mistakes and omissions.

Will add more as time allows.

Fuz
58's&64's
Sun Prairie, Wi.
tmjsong1@aol.com

tmjsong1aolcom
02-16-2012, 09:04 AM
You have been pointed to the steel boss that sticks our from the engine next to the dip stick. This info is when and who built the engine and the last digit as I remember is the inspector ID.

As for the various parts of the engine itself, yes thaere are embossed ids in all the parts and casting dates. Intake is on top infront of the carb and usually obscurred but the carb. If a 58 intake which yours looks like it will be a 6 digit number beginning with a 5. The date code will behind the id and harder to see, Usually one has to remove the carb. Post info and most can decode.

Block is a bit more of a pain. Can be a 6 digit code but check and see. The date code is embossed under the fuel filter housing as the housing must be removed to see it easily.

Exhast manifolds same system but from under the bird should be visible as well as date code.

Heads should be between 2 and 3 spark plug on each side but the date codes are under the valve covers in the center just from the front lip.

Good luck. Post info and most can decode.

The engine color used for 58 is rather unique to the birds. It is called a Ford light blue and hard to find.

Valve covers for 58 had 2 varieties. One was a plain black one with nothing embossed or stamped into it. The later one was FORD as you have. Yours look ok but not sure if the ends were curved as yours appear to be.

Fuz
58's&64's
Sun Prairie, Wi
tmjsong1@aol.com

NYsquarebird58
02-16-2012, 11:15 AM
Fuz, thank you for the information. Hopefully it will be warm enough this weekend for me to work on the Bird and I can get back to you with some numbers. I'm also planning on doing the dowel test that Dave mentioned to determine which crank I have and get a better idea of what engine I have.

NYsquarebird58
02-16-2012, 11:23 AM
Iím ordering brake parts and I canít seem to find a consensus on how many rubber brake hoses are on a 58í Most of the catalogs list three (two up front and one for the rear)

Iíve read several threads on here where members have found there to be five rubber brake hoses (4 up front and one for the rear)
Many of the catalogs only list three rubber brakes hoses for the 58í

I checked Macs and they list the following:

Rear hose 15Ē (1 required)
Front hose -inner 17 ĹĒ (2 required)
Front hose Ė inner 15Ē (2 required)
Front hose Ė outer 14Ē (2 required) Ė this one connects to the wheel cylinders

It looks like Macís offers two different lengths for the front inner hoses (15Ē and 17 ĹĒ)

Iím wondering what the reason for this is?

When I get home tonight Iíll measure my inner hoses and report back

Here are some cell phone shots of my brake hoses. It doesnít make sense to me how this is done. Why wouldnít Ford just have run a longer hard line and only used two rubber hoses up front versus four?

Since many things on this car have changed over the years, I just wanted to confirm that my brake hose setup is factory and not a custom job. What do you guys think?

Driverís side
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/Photo_02.jpg


Passengerís side
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/Photo_021.jpg


If it's not too dark when I get home, I'll take better pics.

Richard D. Hord
02-16-2012, 12:27 PM
Hey Marcelo,
Everything I looked through there are two up front (one per wheel) and one for the rear! These rubber lines were used because of the movement of the front wheels and the movement of the rear-end! Looks like some of the early '58 Thunderbirds had 15" rubber hoses that when the car was jacked up they were short:eek: Later in '58 Ford changed them to 18"
Also if you have the old lines off I would check at NAPA and see if they can make them up for you!
Richard D. Hord

P.S. Just got off phone with Mac's, tech guy tells me there are two each front wheel (four total up front)! Let me see if I get this correct, one from steel line to frame mounting block and one from frame mounting block to brake cylinder :O

YellowRose
02-16-2012, 01:57 PM
Richard sent me this file to upload for him. This might help you, Marcelo. Here it is.

GTE427
02-16-2012, 04:25 PM
Regardless of what the books show, the 58 Front wheels had two brake hoses per wheel. These hoses can't be found in any parts books, but they exist. Start follow pictures of 58's, you'll notice them.

If I recall your photos, you have two hose on your car, however someone improvised the inner hose as an original is nearly impossible to locate.

Pat Wilson sells the original style mystery hose. See the following thread:

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8432&highlight=front+brake+hose

simplyconnected
02-16-2012, 04:30 PM
...These hoses can't be found in any parts books, but they exist...This may be so, but now we can run hard lines to eliminate one hose on each side. There is no real reason for any brake system to have more than one hose per front wheel. Use the existing bracket to connect the hose and hard line. Cunifer tubing bends and flares like butter. - Dave

tbird430
02-16-2012, 05:07 PM
Stock 1958 Birds had a total of four (4) brake HOSES up front & one in the rear system.

:cool:

NYsquarebird58
02-16-2012, 05:10 PM
This may be so, but now we can run hard lines to eliminate one hose on each side. There is no real reason for any brake system to have more than one hose per front wheel. Use the existing bracket to connect the hose and hard line. Cunifer tubing bends and flares like butter. - Dave

Where do I get this tubing? I want to do some bending and flaring this weekend!

tbirds8
02-16-2012, 05:30 PM
If I'm lookin right get those hoses away from your manafold. My hard line on my 60 does away with that one hose. And the carb on your car has been rebuilt at one time.

NYsquarebird58
02-16-2012, 05:35 PM
If I'm lookin right get those hoses away from your manafold. My hard line on my 60 does away with that one hose. And the carb on your car has been rebuilt at one time.

I noticed that too. It's only a few inches away. How can you tell the carb was rebuilt?

NYsquarebird58
02-16-2012, 06:53 PM
GUESS WHAT'S IN THE BIG BOX!

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2677.jpg

And it came in Just 24 hours!:D

Richard D. Hord
02-16-2012, 07:38 PM
Gas Tank?
Richard D. Hord

NYsquarebird58
02-16-2012, 07:47 PM
Gas Tank?
Richard D. Hord

Yes - stay tuned for more detailed pics.

NYsquarebird58
02-16-2012, 08:24 PM
Hereís the fuel tank I purchased from Rock Auto (thank you Dave). I placed the order yesterday morning and it arrived to my door this afternoon. I purchased it along with other things, but with shipping and the 5% discount code (thanks again Dave) It would have been just under $200.00. Very nice tank.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2678.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2679.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2680.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2681.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2683.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2686.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2687.jpg

Drain plug
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2688.jpg

Inlet
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2691.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2692.jpg

NYsquarebird58
02-16-2012, 08:30 PM
Also picked up a new gas cap for $3.46

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2694.jpg

simplyconnected
02-16-2012, 09:30 PM
On the flange corner, away from the seam weld, drill a clearance hole for an 8-32 grounding screw and nut. Think about painting your new tank before you install it. That way you won't need to take it back off, later.

Since your engine and brakes need to be done before the car goes back on the road, you have plenty to do this weekend. For the brakes:
Take all four wheels off, take lots of pix, and pull the shoes off. Pay attention to the Primary and Secondary shoes and don't mix them if you will re-use. Remove the front wheel bearings and wash them and your spindles, real well.

Remove four wheel cylinders and measure their bores. Same goes for the master cylinder. Wash both sides of your brake back plates and paint them black. Follow the Shop Manual.

Don't worry about saving brake line connections if you are re-plumbing the whole car. They are probably rusted and frozen together. (Use the old rear lines to measure for new ones.) At the hose to frame connection, wiggle the 'U' clips out with Channellocks.

After inspecting your original parts, buy a rebuild kit for your master cylinder, and four new wheel cylinders. You can get front hoses for a 1960, and plumb your hard lines accordingly. Look at your drums and determine if they need turning/replacement. Brake shoes, springs & nails can be reused if they are healthy.

I will receive a new batch of cunifer brake line on Monday. If you want a 25' roll, call me. I also have 3/8" IFF nuts in BRASS for 3/16" tubing (your system will need ten of these). Buy brake fluid, good lithium grease, two spindle cotter pins, three 'U' clips, and two front bearing grease seals. For tools; get a GOOD 6-point flare nut wrench 3/8"-7/16", a pair of brake line bending pliers, and an inverted flaring tool set.

Don't forget to go back to Photobucket and make your pictures 800-pixels wide if they are displayed here. - Dave

tbirds8
02-16-2012, 09:59 PM
Yep we can eat off that. just kiddin! Your carb has a plastic secondary arm on the back they had metal ones from the factory and if you keep that carb on the car try and find a metal one. there is nothing wrong with the 4100 its one of the best. Holly bought the design from ford and fazed it out

Penelope
02-17-2012, 01:05 AM
I love the way you have parts on the dining table...if I did that, I would be eating in the garage or car shed, guaranteed!

simplyconnected
02-17-2012, 04:01 AM
Sometimes I unwrap parcels on the counter, and I have little bumps on my head to prove it. - Dave

tmjsong1aolcom
02-17-2012, 07:39 AM
Much said and I won't repeat.
Here's my preferences. All new lines and I use stainless steel. Never rust or corode. If you go this route you should probably buy prebent as I have heard flairing SS can be a bear.

I replace all the wheel cylinders and master cylinder with brass sleved rebuilt units. I use apple hydraulics and tried another vendor that begins with a W. W cost a lot and did not deliver .

There are 4 rubber hoses on the front of the 58 bird as noted. I prefer building as Ford built them so would use 4. Your choice as either way works.

I have also switched to DOT 5 fluid as it is silicone based and does not pick up moisture.

I also replace the shoes and all the hardware. Save the emergency rectangular barake spring as I have not found a source for these yet.

Good Luck
Fuz
tmjsong1@aol.com
58's&64's
Sun Prairie, Wi.

NYsquarebird58
02-17-2012, 09:04 AM
I love the way you have parts on the dining table...if I did that, I would be eating in the garage or car shed, guaranteed!

I took those pictures BEFORE my lady got home from work.:D

If she ever found out................

NYsquarebird58
02-17-2012, 12:32 PM
Much said and I won't repeat.
Here's my preferences. All new lines and I use stainless steel. Never rust or corode. If you go this route you should probably buy prebent as I have heard flairing SS can be a bear.

I replace all the wheel cylinders and master cylinder with brass sleved rebuilt units. I use apple hydraulics and tried another vendor that begins with a W. W cost a lot and did not deliver .

There are 4 rubber hoses on the front of the 58 bird as noted. I prefer building as Ford built them so would use 4. Your choice as either way works.

I have also switched to DOT 5 fluid as it is silicone based and does not pick up moisture.

I also replace the shoes and all the hardware. Save the emergency rectangular barake spring as I have not found a source for these yet.

Good Luck
Fuz
tmjsong1@aol.com
58's&64's
Sun Prairie, Wi.


Fuz, thanks for the advice. Iíve ordered a new master cylinder, and will order the other brake components as needed, once I assess their condition this weekend. Regarding the brake lines; Iíll be using Conifer lines with brass fittings as Dave has suggested.


This will be my first brake job so I will be taking my time, asking questions and posting lots of pictures.


Hope you guys are enjoying this thread so far, cusí Iím just getting warmed up!:D

gaffney1951
02-17-2012, 08:53 PM
on the dot 5 silicone fluid. We changed my son's Galaxie over last summer. Wouldn't recommend it if your not rebuilding or replacing all the cyl., calipers, hoses, etc.. Mike

dgs
02-17-2012, 09:39 PM
Wow, you're having fun aren't you? I rebuilt my brake system with a kit from Kanter. Rebuilt the M/C, rebuilt all 4 W/Cs, new hoses, new shoes and new springs & hardware. Complete kit was ~$200, but that was probably 8 years ago. I had one W/C that was scored so even after the rebuild it leaked. Found a new one at Advance or Autozone for like $13.

Brakes aren't too hard, but with drums you kinda feel like you need a third hand. Keep at it, you'll figure it out. I always leave one side together while I do the other, then you have a reference if you need it. Discs are even easier, especially modern cars. I changed the rear discs on my Mazda3 in an hour or two, could do the fronts on my Odyssey in an hour flat. Once you do 'em you'll kick yourself for paying anyone to do it in the past.

I also used Kanter's front suspension rebuild kit which also worked great.

Good luck and have fun!

simplyconnected
02-17-2012, 10:22 PM
Doug, I am so glad you chimed in because it kinda goes along with the advice I've given Marcelo. I'm not one to throw parts or money at a problem unless it really needs it.

I tried to impress Marcelo with the fact that restorations cost LOTS of money. If you can save a buck here or there, that means you will have it for something else.

I talked him into doing his own brake job just so he knows how to do one. He got cold feet on the M/C and bought a new one because he read horror stories on the 'net from someone who unsuccessfully rebuilt his. Instead of buying a Rock Auto rebuild kit (~$12) he spent $60 for a new OEM. He also plans on retrofitting power disk brakes down the road (so there goes the new M/C).

I agree with using DOT-3. Nothing works better, or costs less, and he IS changing his entire system. At ~$12/ea., I directed Marcelo to buy all new wheel cylinders just because the original bleeder valves are old and probably stuck (or broken off). He can rebuild the old ones and keep them as spares. So far his costs:
$60 -M/C
$62 -25' Cunifer brake line and brass nuts
$3.50 -Grease Seals
$48 -Wheel cylinders
$173.50 New Shoes and Drums are TBD when he takes the old off. Rock Auto wants $30/ea for front drums and about $20/ea for front or rear shoes.

NYsquarebird58
02-18-2012, 05:42 PM
Itís pretty badÖ I canít even find a suitable spot for a jack stands on the front half of the car. The rear frame rails on either side of the gas tank seem OK, but given the condition of the rest of the underbody Iím just not sure. I spent the last two weeks planning, researching and sourcing partsÖdiscovering this is a real blow.

I went to pull out the old battery and the battery tray practically disintegrated in my hands. Hereís what it looks like underneath where the battery tray once was.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2714.jpg

Notice the rust hole where the cross member meets the frame rail
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2716.jpg

The underside of the cross member is gone and that sway bar is just hanging
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2719.jpg

View from the front
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2720.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2721.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2723.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2724.jpg

Driver side rear frame rail
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2725.jpg

Driver side rear wheel well
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2726.jpg

Passenger side rear frame rail
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2727.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2728.jpg

Driver side floor board looking towards the front of the car
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2730.jpg

Driver side wheel well
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2707.jpg

Passenger side wheel well
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2708.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f73/marcelo82ny/1958%20Ford%20Thunderbird/IMG_2733.jpg

I knew the car needed floor boards, at least one rocker panel and trunk repair, but this is structural. Even if I had the money to throw at this, I donít think it would make sense too.

Iím distraught over this. I really wanted to bring this old bird back to life, but Iím just not sure if thatís possible. What say you? Is she still worth saving?

davidmij
02-18-2012, 09:06 PM
Wow, and it looked like such a great car. I can't speak to whether it's worth doing or not, have to let one of the more knowledgable guys say.
And I just took pictures of my air cleaner, chrome pieces, and speaker cover for you too. You probably won't be interested in those anymore.
I know where there's a Bird sitting in a field in NM if you want a parts car, or vice versa. See pix I took here.
https://picasaweb.google.com/101492851059660555641/LostBird?authkey=Gv1sRgCK6DyoHpu5DvyQE

Really don't know what the chassis is like on it either though.

-Dave J

DKheld
02-18-2012, 10:05 PM
Ugh - that's some pretty significant rust. That cross member where the suspension bolts worries me. Another fellow on the forum has done a top notch job repairing one by making and welding in his own sheet steel but he has - I think - every metal tool known to man.

Carl Heller (partsetal) is over in Orwigsburg Pa. about 3 hours away from you - guess it is possible he would have a good front lower clip but that would mean some serious cutting and welding.

Hate to hear it too. Good luck on your decision - it will be a tough one.

Eric

NYsquarebird58
02-18-2012, 10:17 PM
Ugh - that's some pretty significant rust. That cross member where the suspension bolts worries me. Another fellow on the forum has done a top notch job repairing one by making and welding in his own sheet steel but he has - I think - every metal tool known to man.

Carl Heller (partsetal) is over in Orwigsburg Pa. about 3 hours away from you - guess it is possible he would have a good front lower clip but that would mean some serious cutting and welding.

Hate to hear it too. Good luck on your decision - it will be a tough one.

Eric

That's good to know. Maybe he has a solid shell that I can transfer the drivetrain in too.

simplyconnected
02-18-2012, 10:37 PM
I'm sorry things turned out this bad and I promptly returned all of your PayPal money.

Unless you are good with steel fabrication and welding, this project is not for a novice restorer. The pictures bear witness to this fact: Regardless of how you meticulously disect and talk about a job from behind a computer, nothing takes the place of physically looking (before you buy).

We live in the Rust Belt. Our cars usually last about 10-20 years before they go back to the earth. With a Northern car this age, I'm amazed this one lasted 50 years after sitting out for 17. Please, next time, carefully inspect your next car in daylight before you buy. Get on the ground, look, and feel, underneath. - Dave

DKheld
02-18-2012, 11:32 PM
These cars are rust prone in that that area - even my southern car that was bought new here and has always been in the south has a few little rust spots on that cross member that is mostly missing on your car. They just were not rust proofed very well.

A transplant to a good body might be a good idea.

Hope it all works out for the best....

Eric

NYsquarebird58
02-19-2012, 12:57 AM
I'm sorry things turned out this bad and I promptly returned all of your PayPal money.

Unless you are good with steel fabrication and welding, this project is not for a novice restorer. The pictures bear witness to this fact: Regardless of how you meticulously disect and talk about a job from behind a computer, nothing takes the place of physically looking (before you buy).

We live in the Rust Belt. Our cars usually last about 10-20 years before they go back to the earth. With a Northern car this age, I'm amazed this one lasted 50 years after sitting out for 17. Please, next time, carefully inspect your next car in daylight before you buy. Get on the ground, look, and feel, underneath. - Dave

Dave, thank you. I'll use this experience as a lesson learned. You've been a tremendous help and I truly appreciate all the advise.

You guys have all been awesome and I do plan on sticking around. I've learned allot the past two weeks and got to interact with some really cool people.

Now I have to focus on selling the T-Bird and recouping as much money as I can for the parts I've bought. I'm also keeping my eyes peeled for another squarebird project.

Anders
02-19-2012, 04:02 AM
Texas seems to be a good place to buy old cars. Mine have no rust at all. And it must have been in a barn or outside for quite some time in itīs life, as I ( use to , before I removed them ) have like 20-30 small clay nests (?). Well, that said, I do have little on one of the inner fenders in one of the wheel arches, but thatīs where everything from the front tire is hitting. I need to change a piece of 2 X 4 inch. On one side only :)

lawyercalif
02-19-2012, 05:15 AM
Sorry to see your car had that much rust. I just completed rust repair on a convertible that I bought on EBay from Michigan. I can tell you first hand if I had not been able to do some bartering with the body shop owner mine would not have gotten fixed either. My $7500 dollar bargain is now a beautiful Bird but I'm in it over $20,000.00. The SquareBird is a great car but if it is from the East or the Midwest it may very well have structural damage from rust.

keith
02-19-2012, 10:51 AM
Now I have to focus on selling the T-Bird and recouping as much money as I can for the parts I've bought. I'm also keeping my eyes peeled for another squarebird project.

STOP!!! Don't sell this car if your going to buy another Squarebird. You said you paid $675.00 for it. You have the best parts store in your backyard. Unless you buy a turnkey car you are going to buy another project. It is going to need something off of your current car or at least a pattern, visual of a missing part, trading material for other parts,etc,etc.

I know you are overwhelmed with what you have found, but you didn't get hurt other than your dream went from color to black and white. You learned that you need to assume the worse. But for your purchase price you did good.

I'm not going to tell you that you can fix it. But I sure as heck would look for another parts car and join a local car club,meet some hobbiest that can help you with labor or point you to someone who would be willing to help you out.

I'm a serious hobbiest and I enjoy helping someone who wants to restore,fix, or customize/hotrod a car. With a little notice I can always make a opening in my shop for a fellow club member, friend , newly made friend to work or help them work on their car on a weekend or a couple of evenings. Some leave money,some don't,some help me when I need a extra hand, conversation, advise or barter for a part I need. I've been burnt, but I learned that just happens sometimes.


Good luck in whatever you decide.

simplyconnected
02-19-2012, 11:01 AM
Thank You for the kudos, Marcelo. Hindsight is always 20/20 but nobody knows it all. Every one of us started out the same, knowing **** little or nothing, and hopefully we learned from our mistakes and experiences.

If you are a restorer, most of this work (90%) is grunt preparation work, like cleaning and de-rusting parts. Restoring requires you use all your senses WITH the perception of things you don't see, don't hear, and don't smell. Manuals help understand originality but you gotta put your hands on it, open your eyes, and use your imagination. Then, put your skills to work. Start by working with someone experienced.

I bought my '55 from a 'decent man' in the cotton fields of southern Missouri who kept saying his car was "solid" and it was bone original. I went in with the determination of totally stripping it down to a bare shell and building it up. I have some skills, which brings my cost down considerably. He lied. (Let me put on my 'Surprised' face...) I found evidence of overspray and patch panels.

This was my #1 crossmember (click on the picture):
http://home.comcast.net/~simplyconnected/55Ford/EbayPurchase/FrontB.JPG (http://home.comcast.net/~simplyconnected/55Ford/EbayPurchase/index.htm)
(Look at pictures 16-22) No matter to me, I just made a new one and welded it back in place. Now, it's better than new. I later found out this is a common problem with this model and have found replacements for $400 on eBay. Mine cost ~$10.

Lawyercalif did things right, if you're not skilled in some areas, hire a good tradesman to do it right the first time to save you money. OR, buy the car already restored. Twenty grand is about half of what most folks pay. In today's economy, you can find already restored Squarebirds for about $20k.

Your Thunderbird would be perfect for someone who fabricates metal IF he can get it cheap and has time. We have been following KEITH (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8299&page=4)'s posts for some time. He cuts out rotted steel and replaces it with new. Check out his thread before all the pictures are gone. (Some of the early pics are taken down, already.)

I wish you well in your next restoration. - Dave

davidmij
02-19-2012, 11:08 AM
I agree with Keith, that's why I mentioned the car I supplied pix of. The glass, dash parts, seats, bumpers, etc on your car are worth $675 easily! You're still good to go, just take a little time and find another T-bird to build. Heck, even the 14 inch aluminum wheels have value to someone. Can't find those easily.
If you are interested I can find out the name of the little general store and it's number where the t-bird sits. He may sell it for next to nothing. It's in Carson City, very near Taos and Santa Fe.
-Dave J

keith
02-19-2012, 11:11 AM
We have been following KEITH (http://squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8299&page=4)'s posts for some time. He cuts out rotted steel and replaces it with new. Check out his thread before all the pictures are gone. (Some of the early pics are taken down, already.)

I wish you well in your next restoration. - Dave

I'm sorry about the missing pictures. I'm not very good with the computer thing. I didn't remove the pictures on purpose, I was trying to put them in order and I didn't realize that PhotoBucket would lose it's link to the post. I need to figure out how to restore the missing pictures in the post. the thread looks bad without pictures. I apologize for that.

Keith

simplyconnected
02-19-2012, 11:14 AM
Keith, we can put all your pictures in a separate site and they will never go away. We enjoy your work and your pictures are fabulous.

Call me and we'll get your pics straightened out. - Dave 248-544-8834

tmjsong1aolcom
02-20-2012, 09:05 AM
If you are going to do another squarebird the price you paid for this one will pale in comparison to what it will cost to round of parts for another one.

I do not know if you have the space, but I personally would part it out and strip every good piece from the bird and then send the carcass or take it to the scrap metal yard.

Squarebird parts are getting harder and harder to find. I have parted out several 58's and do not throw anything out anymore until there is absolutely nothing useful left. Then there is always something useful left.

Good Luck with whatever decision you make.

Unfortunately what you have experienced is not unusual for the squarebird bodies.

Fuz
58's&64's
Sun Prairie, Wi
tmjsong1@aol.com

NYsquarebird58
02-20-2012, 01:05 PM
If you are going to do another squarebird the price you paid for this one will pale in comparison to what it will cost to round of parts for another one.

I do not know if you have the space, but I personally would part it out and strip every good piece from the bird and then send the carcass or take it to the scrap metal yard.

Squarebird parts are getting harder and harder to find. I have parted out several 58's and do not throw anything out anymore until there is absolutely nothing useful left. Then there is always something useful left.

Good Luck with whatever decision you make.

Unfortunately what you have experienced is not unusual for the squarebird bodies.

Fuz
58's&64's
Sun Prairie, Wi
tmjsong1@aol.com

I know I could probably get more if I were to part her out, But I just donít have the time and the space for all that.

Iíll be happy if I get what I have spent on her back and she goes to a good home.

Ideally the new owner would be someone with a garage with lots of tools, patience and excellent metal fabrication skills.

I would really like to walk away from this knowing that my 58í is better off going to a better home than she would have been, if I never crossed paths with her.

In a long enough timeline we donít really own these cars; weíre merely good stewards for the time there with us. If we can save a car from going to the scrapper, or pass it along in just a little bit better condition than we found it, than we did a good deed in doing our part in preserving a piece of automotive history.

Richard D. Hord
02-20-2012, 06:58 PM
This has got to be the best quote I have seen for a long time! Thanks Marcelo

"In a long enough timeline we don’t really own these cars; we’re merely good stewards for the time there with us. If we can save a car from going to the scrapper, or pass it along in just a little bit better condition than we found it, than we did a good deed in doing our part in preserving a piece of automotive history"
Richard D. Hord