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twotone
01-22-2012, 09:36 AM
Hello have you or some one you know ever put a 430 from a 59 full size mercury or monarch in a 59 tbird.Iam thinking of putting one in i have in a 59 monarch sceptre. The tbird has a 352 now is the trans the same there both cruizeomatics and any other differances.in motor or linkage.

YellowRose
01-22-2012, 11:49 AM
Hi twotone, Someone else is going to have to answer some of your questions, but I can tell you that the COM in a '59 Tbird with a 352CI engine is different than that for a '59 Tbird with a 430CI engine. So is the rear end. The COM used with a 352CI engine is a PBL-U and a 430CI engine should have an ID of PBB-M to indicate it is the heavier duty COM for the 430. The rear axle codes are different also. A '59 Tbird with a 430CI engine in it should have one of these rear axle codes. Code 5 - 2.91:1 (430 Engine) Code 0 - 2.91:1 (430 Engine) Code F - 2.91:1 Equa Lock (430 Engine). Check out this website.
http://automotivemileposts.com/tbird1959specifications.html

twotone
01-22-2012, 06:38 PM
Thanks again brother i have to get alot done to get to that point your info will help lots . i even have the 383 merc to that one is locked up though.:rolleyes:

DKheld
01-22-2012, 06:54 PM
The front springs are different also - I'm sure it's because of the heavier 430. I believe the air cleaner is particular to the Tbird and may be too tall and hit the hood if you use the one from the Merc. I do know that the air cleaner from the 430 will fit the 352 (and probably vice versa) if both have (or had) the Ford 4100 carb. I am using a 430 air cleaner on my 352 - they look identical except the end of the snorkel.

Only differences I am aware of other than what Ray listed.

Good luck on your project - post some pics if you get a chance!

Eric
registry 5347
http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdatasheet.aspx?RegistryNumber=5347

YellowRose
01-22-2012, 07:13 PM
Come to think of it, I think the motor mounts for the 430CI are different also. Someone can verify or correct that if needs be, please.

redstangbob
01-22-2012, 09:05 PM
This post from the MEL forum may be of interest.
http://ford-mel-engine.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=445&hilit=hawkrod

YellowRose
01-22-2012, 11:05 PM
Thanks for posting that information by Hawkrod and additional comments by KULTULZ. Within that information is another link that ya'll might want to take a look at. It is this.

http://reviews.ebay.com/Ford-V-8-Engine-Families-A-Primer_W0QQugidZ10000000004021551

I think I am going to add this information to the TRL for future use. It looks to be very good information to have for posterity. And..... I did!

twotone
01-23-2012, 08:53 AM
This is all valuble info glad i asked before doing anything.I have been to the wixom assembly plant back in the middle 90s when they were making the topaz.She,s a legend sorry to here its closed.

KULTULZ
01-23-2012, 08:46 PM
You can mount a 59/60 430 into the BIRD with little work as the combination was factory offered. The 59/60 430 BIRD has forward engine mounts and the FE has center mounts riding on the cross member.

The 430 can be set down using FE mounts (early blocks 59/60 had both mounting positions in the side skirts).

I would think the FE flex plate and convertor can be used. The FE trans is a lighter duty (MX) but should hold a mild 430. The rears are the same, only the ratios different.

twotone
01-24-2012, 02:59 PM
Thankyou brother im hoping to get at it sometime this year.Iwas hoping to have it were the 352 could go back in with little trouble.

nasty55ford
01-24-2012, 11:49 PM
Swapping a 352 for a 430MEL


It is fairly easy. The first thing you need to do is get a light and a camera. Crawl under both cars and take pictures of the starter on both cars, the Merc starter and the 352 starter. Both have shims. They are shimmed differently. After you take pictures of that take pictures of both engines in the daylight with the hoods off and save them. Disconnect the battery cables from the engine and remove the battery.

First off you are going to need a stronger than usual engine hoist. If you use an el cheapo harbor freight one it will lift it, but if you can’t push the Merc back out of the way you will break the wheels off. I know because I have done it before.

Once you have taken out your 352, first take off your generator and the coil (don’t disconnect any wires) just set the coil and generator to the side. Unbolt every thing and pull/leave torque conv in. Once you have removed the 352 this would be a nice time to clean and paint the inside.

On top of the spring towers are one stud on each side. Jack the car up in the air till tires are off the ground. Loosen the nut connected to the stud out of the shock. Unbolt the three bolts underneath the shock. Take a hammer and hit it with medium force. It will drop the shock out the bottom of the car. Then proceed to do the same to the Merc. Wrap your Thunderbird shocks together with tape and put away. Take the shocks from the Merc and clean up and install them.

Now once you have that out of the way, you’re ready to install the 430. You want the easy way out of the motor mounts since your gonna reinstall your 352 later. But I am willing to guarantee you will say “what 352” after you drive it with the 430 in it. You can go on speedwaymotors.com. You need to order the Ford FE cross member for 50 bucks.

Once you get it, set your 430 down in place. Get everything connected back together. Now you need to look at the pic of the 430 starter in the Merc and see how it was shimmed. Take your shim you have marked Merc and install. If you don’t do this and use the starter from the Merc the starter drive gear will not clear the ring gear very good. It will hit.

After you have everything done with you engine still hooked to the hoist, raise up till transmission bell housing hits the fire wall. As you go up check your rear mount. Make sure it not up to high or it’ll pop.

Then take your FE cross member, bolt up to your mounts snugly, slowly lower engine back in till you have your sweet spot on the frame to mount to on each side. Once you find it, mark it around the square real good. Then raise motor back up so you have room to work in the mounts. Drill or weld and if you don’t have a welder and are on a budget, drag it down to any trade school that has welding or a body shop class. They can do it real cheap or free. Then that should do it.

As for the rear, the one out of the Merc should be an aqua lock 9 inch with 356 gears. It has 31 spline axles and is kick ***. Unhook the emergency brake cables, unbolt the shocks and u-bolts and drive shaft. Put the sucker in and then you will have a kick *** bird. Then when you figure that out, pm me and I’ll tell you how to make it faster and where to get parts.

nasty55ford
01-25-2012, 12:04 AM
and also on this site there is a pdf file on a 1960 t bird shop manual download you need this. read it .find it. it will be gold to you. it has the 352 and the 430 side by side you will get all you answers you will be looking for in the future. good luck pm me if you get stuck i will be happy to help you when i did all this frankenstein stuff when i was young no one helped me and it sucked till i got better at it 32 years later

YellowRose
01-25-2012, 01:01 AM
Hi Calvin,

Thank you very much for those instructions! I tried to PM you before you logged off. I have taken those instructions, and put them in an outline form for you. If you do not mind, I can replace what you wrote with something that will be much easier to read in a step by step fashion. In fact, I am thinking of adding that to the TRL for posterity. It should certainly come in handy for those who might want to do that in the future.

twotone
01-27-2012, 06:47 PM
and also on this site there is a pdf file on a 1960 t bird shop manual download you need this. read it .find it. it will be gold to you. it has the 352 and the 430 side by side you will get all you answers you will be looking for in the future. good luck pm me if you get stuck i will be happy to help you when i did all this frankenstein stuff when i was young no one helped me and it sucked till i got better at it 32 years later
Thankyou very much nasty we will be in touch.Just have to get some other things done to get to that point.

63-4drpost
01-20-2013, 11:25 AM
I put a 1959 Merc 430 in my 1960 T-Bird.
welded home-made front motor mounts to frame(I used a piece of Model t FRAME RAIL,GOOD IRON)
BOLTED TO THE 352 CRUISEMATIC NO PROBLEMS
exhaust, oil pan , all worked fine.
bolt the engine to the already mounted in place transmission, then you know where to weld the front motor mounts.
some 430 have the side motor mounts like a 352, mine did not.
I have since changed to a 3-speed stick set-up. floor shift, really like it. I can send pictures of the installation if you want.Henry

YellowRose
01-20-2013, 12:30 PM
Hi Henry, we love pix so if you can show us some of your installation we will enjoy seeing them, I am sure!

KULTULZ
01-23-2013, 07:01 AM
I put a 1959 Merc 430 in my 1960 T-Bird.

welded home-made front motor mounts to frame(I used a piece of Model t FRAME RAIL,GOOD IRON)
BOLTED TO THE 352 CRUISEMATIC NO PROBLEMS
exhaust, oil pan , all worked fine.

bolt the engine to the already mounted in place transmission, then you know where to weld the front motor mounts.

some 430 have the side motor mounts like a 352, mine did not.

I have since changed to a 3-speed stick set-up. floor shift, really like it. I can send pictures of the installation if you want.

Henry

Are you referring to the engine cradle (frame) mounts (352) or the actual insulator position (engine skirt design - 430) themselves?

I was under the impression that all 59/60 J-BIRDS came through with the 352 frame mounts.




You can mount a 59/60 430 into the BIRD with little work as the combination was factory offered. The 59/60 430 BIRD has forward engine mounts and the FE has center mounts riding on the cross member.

The 430 can be set down using FE mounts (early blocks 59/60 had both mounting positions in the side skirts).

I would think the FE flex plate and convertor can be used. The FE trans is a lighter duty (MX) but should hold a mild 430. The rears are the same, only the ratios different.

I would really appreciate clarity as I need to update my notes... :D

I love it when these little factoids come to life...

KULTULZ
03-20-2013, 07:08 AM
I put a 1959 Merc 430 in my 1960 T-Bird. welded home-made front motor mounts to frame(I used a piece of Model t FRAME RAIL,GOOD IRON)

BOLTED TO THE 352 CRUISEMATIC NO PROBLEMS
exhaust, oil pan , all worked fine.

bolt the engine to the already mounted in place transmission, then you know where to weld the front motor mounts.

some 430 have the side motor mounts like a 352, mine did not.

I have since changed to a 3-speed stick set-up. floor shift, really like it. I can send pictures of the installation if you want.

Henry




Are you referring to the engine cradle (frame) mounts (352) or the actual insulator position (engine skirt design - 430) themselves?

I was under the impression that all 59/60 J-BIRDS came through with the 352 frame mounts.

UPDATE-

I have since found that not all J-BIRDS came through with the 352 engine mount tabs.

Henry, did you ever post or send the changeover photos in?

YellowRose
03-20-2013, 09:49 AM
Here is what Henry had to say. "Here is my home made motor mounts. I used the front style mounts because I had them and like them better than the Ford style mounts. It shows the 1972 Dodge master cylinder also. I also installed a 2000 Taurus rack. It has some bump steer, so will work at correcting that as soon as this frickin' snow goes away! 10* last night, 20th of March."

Here are the pix Henry just sent me!

DaveB
06-23-2013, 06:40 PM
I am looking at a 1960 bird and trying to figure out which engine it has. VIN has a Y but the valve covers are not correct; look like 430's. Any easy way to visually identify a 430 from a 352?

Thanks

Dave

Howard Prout
06-23-2013, 07:59 PM
For a 430 the surge tank sits lengthwise to the engine, not crosswise as for a 352. The fuel pump for a 430 sits top centre of the engine at the front as is single action. The fuel pump for a 352 sits lower on the left side as is a double action pump including a vacuum pump. Attached are a picture of a 430 from the shop manual as well as pictures of the left and right side of the 430 in my vehicle.

scumdog
06-23-2013, 11:36 PM
Yup, the fuel pump is a dead give-away - and easy to see on a 430.

simplyconnected
06-24-2013, 01:02 AM
Yep, my eyes are still blinded by all that chrome under Howard's hood. Sure does look great! - Dave

63-4drpost
06-24-2013, 11:03 AM
yep, easiest way(but NOT the only way) to ID a 430 is the fuel pump. 352 is mounted lower front of driver's side of engine, 430 is right on top of the front od engine, on the timing cover. Just a side-note, I have a completely rebuilt 430 for sale.

63-4drpost
06-24-2013, 11:05 AM
Just kidding, that is the pretiest 430 I have evr seen. Nice job!