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spujia
12-09-2010, 01:50 AM
Greetings,

Back again! I just rebuilt my 430 in my '60, everything was replaced except the radiator, heater core (and starter). I had the radiator repaired because the upper hose connection weld had broken cleanly off. The radiator guy said the radiator was in good shape. I replaced the temp sensor on the rebuild too.

Anyway, when I idle the engine, which I just got running, in cool weather the temp gauge gets well into the "P" in "Temp", and I get scared and shut her down. I have a 15lb cap. I see a small bit of water ooze out of the connection to the heater core; one hose to the heater is warm, the other cool...

Questions:
1. Can a bad heater core cause enough flow restriction to cause the engine to overheat?
2. Where can I find a high-volume replacement radiator that will fit right in, and a replacement fan with more blades?

Thanks!

Steve

spujia
12-09-2010, 01:53 AM
Also...

Which hose goes to the top of the heater? The one from the water pump or the one from the manifold?

partsetal
12-09-2010, 09:25 AM
There are other things to consider also; Extra friction from the new rings in a newly rebuilt motor, did the rebuilder replace the diverters behind the water pump, and are you running with or without the auxilliary 430 thermostats, is timing correct etc.
Carl

YellowRose
12-09-2010, 09:41 AM
Hi Steve,

I will let our good techies answer your questions regarding the heater hose connections. I would have to do some research to answer that, and some of our members know that information off the top of their heads.

As for replacing your radiator, if it checks out good, why replace it? However, there are replacement radiators available and fans with more blades. Some have gone the aluminum route, but I think our radiators cool better than aluminum does. I think I read where simplyconnected recently mentioned that. Talk with the various people at our parts vendors. Like Bob at Bob's Bird House or Don at the Bird Nest. You can get a five bladed fan from one of the parts houses. I got my six bladed flex fan from Autozone as I recall. That and a metal fan shroud from a 1963 Galaxie I bought off of eBay keeps Rose running cool. You can get a plastic type shroud from Dearborn, I think it is. Click on the link below my signature and check out the Technical Resource Library. The answers to many questions that come up are often found there. Earlier in the Fall, I drove her in a parade at 5mph and she stayed as cool as a cucumber and it was in the 80's or low 90's.

tbird430
12-09-2010, 10:31 AM
1. A new motor can tend to run on the warmer side do to all the new parts "wearing" in to place & seating themselves. The coolant diverters behind each waterpump ear (going to the block) are HUGE!!! You have to have them to get the correct coolant flow through the heads/block. Did you install a new waterpump & get the correct thermostat installed correctly?

And no, a blocked heater core will not cause an engine to overheat. :o

2. Did you have the OE radiator cleaned out and flow tested? I know a few members have install the newer 6-blade fans on their Squarebirds with good results. On my 430cid '60 Bird w/ A/C, I still have the stock 5-blade fan- But I recently added a steel fan shroud off a 1961-63 Ford Fairlane/Galaxie Big V-8 car. It did require some moding, but it was nothing any shadetree guy couldn't do on a weekend. Use the search function above to find the thread on the steel fan shrouds. :cool:

-Good luck,
Jon in TX.

simplyconnected
12-09-2010, 01:50 PM
Your engine didn't overheat when new, and it shouldn't now. I assume your gauge is accurate.

You have a real copper radiator. It can be flow checked. It can be recored, if necessary. Aluminum doesn't transfer heat as well as copper and is much harder to repair.

Head gaskets installed backwards will cause a new engine to overheat. The word, "FRONT" is plainly marked, and the square edge should be evident in the top-front corner (between the head and block).

Manufacturers try to balance water flow by the water holes in the head gaskets. Cool water enters the front of the block in car engines. Then it flows across each cylinder, and goes up the rear of both heads, and into the intake manifold (where the thermostat is situated at the hottest point). Head gaskets have tiny or no holes in the front, and much larger holes at the rear cylinders.

If the gaskets are backwards, water flow never gets to the back cylinders (3, 4, 7, & 8).

I agree with Jon. Most of the time, your heater valve shuts off water flow.

Whether heater inlet goes in the top or bottom matters little, as long as hot water flows when you call for heat.

Check your heat riser valve on your RH exhaust manifold. Make sure it isn't stuck shut, or your radiator will deal with half your exhaust heat. - Dave

tbird430
12-09-2010, 04:17 PM
Check your heat riser valve on your RH exhaust manifold. Make sure it isn't stuck shut, or your radiator will deal with half your exhaust heat. - Dave

The 430cid cars didn't have this feature....

simplyconnected
12-09-2010, 05:18 PM
Yeah, I forgot about that. The 430 is the only engine without a heat riser.

Howard Prout
12-09-2010, 08:15 PM
are you running with or without the auxilliary 430 thermostats
Carl

Carl, do you know of a source for the auxilary thermostats? I've never been able to find them so I've been running without them - and running hot!

tbird430
12-10-2010, 12:17 PM
Every once in a blue moon NOS ones pop up on Ebay.

They really are only needed for heaters in the colder climate areas. That is why Ford stopped using them in the later Lincoln models...

-Jon in TX.

simplyconnected
12-10-2010, 03:56 PM
...They really are only needed for heaters in the colder climate areas...Jon, you guys from Texas slay me. LOL

I have only one question for you:
How big is your snow blower?

Here's Howard, clearing his driveway at home, because snow doesn't go away on its own, for months. Sometimes, we run out of places to put it:

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2262&stc=1&d=1262013138

Notice those orange stakes in the background (at the left)? Notice how TALL they are? They tell Howard where his driveway STARTS.

Howard's 430 could really use block thermostats.- Dave

Howard Prout
12-10-2010, 06:30 PM
I've been having an interesting conversation with Carl (partsetal). He mentioned the importance of the water diverters in keeping an engine running cool. I had never heard of them. Apparently the original ones were made of steel and tended to rust out and vanish. Carl said the newer ones are made of brass. I don't think my engine ever had them since I've had it. They are parts nos. B8E-8526-A amd B8E-8527-E. The only source I have found for them so far is Lincoln Land (lincolnlandinc.com) in Florida. They show two sizes. 1 1/2" and 1 5/8" at $115/pair. I now have to figure out which size I need for my engine.

Update: Lincoln Parts International (lincolnpartsinterntional.com) also lists the diverters in 1 1/2" and 1 5/8" but at $55 per pair. I don't know if they are brass or aluminum, probably aluminum. Classique Cars Unlimited (classiquecars.com) lists brass diverters for $148.50 per pair and Baker's Auto lists them for $110 per pair. Some of these sites recommend measuring the holes in the block before ordering diverters. What I haven't been able to determine is what the rationale is for the different sizes. It may be that the port size for earlier runs was 1 1/2" and later runs 1 5/8" or vice versa. Who knows? I think I will take the water pump off my engine,measure the ports and order the appropriate diverters. Once i have mesured the ports I will post what size they are.

I'd also like to get a pair of block thermostats but can't find a source for them. Carl says they occaisionally come up on eBay so I'll have to watch for them.

BTW, the tractor is sitting in the garage ready to go whenever it snows. It can sit there all winter and not get any work as far as I am concerned. I had it out a few days ago to clear a skiff of snow. I was a bit like using an elephant gun to kill a fly.

1960_430_AU
12-10-2010, 11:58 PM
Two questions guys
How much hotter does a 430 run without the diverters?
Any way to tell what size is needed without pulling the water pump?

Oh yeah one other thing
What's snow??? :)

Richard

simplyconnected
12-11-2010, 12:42 AM
I'm movin' to Australia.

Howard Prout
12-11-2010, 09:38 AM
Two questions guys
How much hotter does a 430 run without the diverters?
Any way to tell what size is needed without pulling the water pump?

Oh yeah one other thing
What's snow??? :)

Richard

I will be able to better answer you questions around August after I have had some experience with the engine running in hot weather.

I am going to take the water pump off my engine to see if it has diverters - I am reasonably confident it does not. If not, I am going to install a pair of diverters. If it does, I'll have a look at them to see if they need replacing.

My engine has run very hot for a long time - I think I first noticed it after I did some work on it in the early 1980s. I had a lot of parts chrome plated at that time. When I noticed the engine running hot, I concluded that it was due to the chromed parts. On hot days, such as when the temperature is above 90F and the air is humid, the engine temperature gauge can go up to the top, especially if I am in stop and go traffic. If so, I have to pull over and let it cool down. Another scenario is after driving for some distance, I park the car for a few minutes and then try to drive it again. At times you can hear the coolant boiling in the reservoir. Sometimes I also get a fuel pump vapour lock. All this happens even though I have a triple core radiator, a six blade fan and a fan shroud! Assuming my engine does not have diverters, will putting them in make a difference? I don't know - stayed tuned to find out.

Is there any way of knowing what size of diverters to use without pulling the water pump? Not that I know of as yet. Maybe it depends on when the engine was built. MEL engines were used in Lincolns into the mid 1960s. From what I have read, Ford stopped installing the block thermostats in MEL engines at some point - maybe they went to larger ports at the same time. Most of the web sites listing diverters advise measuring the size of the ports before ordering diverters. Maybe the size of diverters used depended on the block casting and some were fitted with 1 1/2" diverters and others with 1 5/8" diverters. Who knows?

partsetal
12-11-2010, 10:27 AM
The Lincoln Mercury Microfiche lists B8E 8526 & 7-A as being 1.631" OD for block bores of 1.620/1.625" diameter for the 1960-64 383/430. It also lists
C4VY-8526 & 7-A as being 1.531" OD for block bores of 1.520/1.525" diameter for the same 1960-64 383/430.
B8E 8526 & 7 is listed in the Lincoln Book for the 58-9 430 no dimensions given.
C4VY 8526/7-B is listed for 1965-67 430/462 for 1.520/1.525" block openings, but it is available in both brass and steel (perhaps the B suffix is for the brass)
My presumption then is that the earlier blocks had the larger bores and sometime in late 59 there was a change to the smaller bore. It is still best to measure!
Carl

Howard Prout
12-11-2010, 11:11 AM
Thanks for the info, Carl. My car was built in January of 1959 so the engine is probably of the earlier version. But as you suggest, I will measure the ports before ordering the diverters.

simplyconnected
12-11-2010, 02:39 PM
I wonder a couple things about the 430:


Why would anyone put a thermostat on the inlet side of a block? This is the coldest part of the coolant.

Why is the 430, Ford's only engine that has this setup? All Ford car engines have inlets in the front of the block, they all run coolant around the cylinders to the back and up the heads, and they all send hot coolant out the front of the intake manifold.

Since water flow takes the path of least resistance, I would seriously look at the holes in the 430's head gaskets. They should be nearly closed off in the front, and open in the rear of the engine. (This sends coolant to the back cylinders.)

Connecting rods squirt oil on the bottoms of your aluminum pistons (every stroke), pulling serious heat away. The oil is always hotter (~230*F) than coolant, but nothing cools the oil. Sludge forms when oil breaks down from heat. (You guys running hot engines need synthetic oil).

So, two areas can be improved in the cooling system; correctly balanced block water flow, and the addition of a simple oil cooler.

To find hot spots, engine temperatures can be accurately measured with a hand-held infrared temp sensor. - Dave

Howard Prout
12-11-2010, 04:41 PM
I contacted Lincoln Parts International and they directed me to this ad on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270678730139&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

Part of that ad includes the discussion shown in the attachment. The eBay ad also shows how the diverters are to be installed. Interestingly they say there is no way to know what size you need until you measure your block! It is also interesting to note the emphasis they put on the point that a MEL engine will overheat if these diverters are not installed. Another point of interest is that the price on their web page is $55 plus about $30 S&H while the price on eBay is $125 plus $12 S&H. A further check on the current price confirmed it to be $125 per pair plus $10 S&H to US or $20 S&H to Canada.

spujia
12-21-2010, 10:44 PM
Hey guys,

Here's an update:

Yes I installed the diverters - I got them from a Lincoln parts site. I ran the car again, this time until the temp gauge stopped moving up. It passed the middle of the "P" and then settled back down to the "|" in the "P". Then the fuel pump got vapor locked, I believe, because the car just stopped running. This really made me scratch my head. If the car overheats, it should overheat all the way. I remember that the sender I got was for a Lincoln, not a Bird, so I thought maybe the resistance was different. I went an auto parts store (NAPA) and found out the part numbers are the same, so no help there. I'm gonna replace the temp sensor with a aftermarket system that has a gauge that tells the exact temp (anyone know what that should be?) If that doesn't work I'm going to remove the thermostat. There are no block thermostats installed (couldn't find them), and I think most of the water goes through those holes rather than through the radiator via the thermostat.

PS - I live in California :)

simplyconnected
12-22-2010, 03:36 AM
...There are no block thermostats installed (couldn't find them), and I think most of the water goes through those holes rather than through the radiator via the thermostat.Your water pump inlet comes from the bottom of your radiator and the pump delivers coolant to the block holes. The intake manifold thermostat outputs hot water back to the radiator top.

Removing the thermostat should make the engine run unregulated-cool, all the time. Free flowing coolant can not cause your engine to overheat.

I like the idea of using a real mechanical bulb thermostat. It should be mounted near the hottest part of your engine; close to your thermostat on the intake manifold. If a thermometer still indicates a hot engine, either the coolant isn't flowing correctly or heat isn't being exchanged through the radiator.

spujia
12-22-2010, 04:50 PM
Your water pump inlet comes from the bottom of your radiator and the pump delivers coolant to the block holes. The intake manifold thermostat outputs hot water back to the radiator top.



Why would anyone put a thermostat on the inlet side of a block? This is the coldest part of the coolant.

Aren't these statements contradictory? Which way does the water go?

simplyconnected
12-22-2010, 05:27 PM
Look at any water pump. Coolant enters the middle and the vanes fling it outward. There is only one inlet (large hose from the bottom of the radiator) and two outlet ports (to the block holes). Yes, there is also a small inlet for the heater 'return' line, which goes to the inlet side.
http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=32257&imageurl=http%3A//www.cardone.com/Imagesftp/58/58430-01.jpg
This Rock Auto picture shows the large inlet going to the middle of the pump, and the large-diameter vanes feeding the block ports. Rotation direction doesn't matter.

This begs the question: Why would Ford put block thermostats in the INLET side of the block? Also note, this is the ONLY Ford Motor Co. engine with block thermostats.

So coolant enters the front of the block, travels around the cylinders and up the heads through head gasket holes. From the heads, flow goes through the intake manifold and out the thermostat (in the front of the intake manifold). This is the hottest part of the coolant path; where the thermostat is, where the temperature gauge sender is, and where the heater core inlet hose is.

So, coolant goes in the block and out the thermostat. Pretty standard on most all engines.

spujia
12-22-2010, 09:26 PM
I see, you were referring to the block thermostats in the second quote.

Does anyone know what the correct thermostat opening temp is, and at what temperature the engine should operate? My 2004 Trailblazer runs just below the 210 degree mark.

scumdog
12-22-2010, 11:03 PM
This begs the question: Why would Ford put block thermostats in the INLET side of the block? Also note, this is the ONLY Ford Motor Co. engine with block thermostats..

Hmm, I'm sitting here looking at my 'wine rack' which also happens to be a 351C block - and it appears to have the thermostat situated in the block...

spujia
12-23-2010, 01:05 AM
Nice wine rack.

WELL, LETS SEE NOW...

I let the car run until the temp got midway into the "M" in "TEMP". Then I shut her down and let her cool for 10 min. I turned the key to the "On" position and the temp gauge still read on the "M". I then was able to easily remove the cap from the reservoir. I put my finger in the tank and the water was luke-warm. However, if I put my hand on the intake manifold by the sensor, the motor was hot and I had to take my hand away. From this I deduce:

1. No way I should be able to remove the cap with no pressure with the temp in the "M"
2. The thermostat had not opened even when the temp was in the "M"

I took the tank off and took a look at the thermostat. Its rated for 195 deg. I emptied the radiator and the water was first room-temp, then hot as the block emptied. Since the thermostat is new, from this I deduce:

1. The temp sensor or gauge is wrong

I'm still not sure what the thermostat opening temp should be - anyone know this number, and what temp the motor should run at?

I'm going to install the aftermarket temp gauge and am still debating removing the thermostat, pending knowing what the right opening temp number is...

Steve

simplyconnected
12-23-2010, 02:38 AM
Hmm, I'm sitting here looking at my 'wine rack' which also happens to be a 351C block - and it appears to have the thermostat situated in the block...Ummmm... well... 351C engines utilize a dry intake manifold, which is why the top radiator hose routes across then downward (through the water outlet) to the engine block. Since this engine has no water in the intake manifold, it must come out the block. Regardless, when that thermostat opens, hot water comes OUT to the radiator. 430 is still the only engine I know where Ford put thermostats on the inlet side of the block.

Steve, why not try a 180* or a 160* thermostat? They're only a two bucks and commonly available. I believe Thunderbirds came from the factory with 180* 'stats. That would explain why your gauge reads 'hot'.

scumdog
12-23-2010, 07:08 AM
Nice wine rack.


1. The temp sensor or gauge is wrong

I'm still not sure what the thermostat opening temp should be - anyone know this number, and what temp the motor should run at?

I'm going to install the aftermarket temp gauge and am still debating removing the thermostat, pending knowing what the right opening temp number is...

Steve

Or..maybe the thermostat has been put in backwards?

It has been known to happen,- of course not seeing your block I cannot say if it's possible in your case.

partsetal
12-23-2010, 09:37 AM
For any trouble shooting of cooling problems, I've found that the infrared no contact thermometer provides valuable information without testing sensors, guages, hoses, etc. By aiming it's laser pointer at various locations in the engine compartment it will immediately show blockages, and help identify the temperature when your needle is at M or P.
This tool is also invaluable for checking brake temperatures and cylinder exhaust temperatures.
For me this little tool has proven a valuable addition to my diagnostic techniques. They are readily available at Sears, Harbor Freight, Amazon, eBay and many other tool outlets. The best quality ones seem to be in the 50-75 range, but well worth it.
Carl

JohnG
12-26-2010, 10:28 AM
I would reaffirm getting a better way to determine temperature than a 50 year old gauge that has no calibration on it. That information is almost meaningless; sticking your finger in is an improvement!

Various things to consider:

* an infrared temp gun. Harbor Freight. Good for everything from your car to your steak to your infected knee. In this case you can gather data from all over your motor in minutes.

Part of what you are on the hunt for are "gradients" or substantial changes in temperature that you can't account for. These might indicate restrictions to coolant flow or air flow.

* a digital thermometer. Calibrate your temp gauge by putting the sending unit in boiling water and then jotting down the temperature as it cools, especially at every letter on your gauge (P-M-E-T) as it drops.

* overhaul where the sending unit grounds on your motor. Corrosion can make for added resistance, which is what the sending unit is based on. If need be, make up a jumper to a better ground. Not much amperage flowing here, so good connections are a must!

* is your ignition timing pretty close to stock?? All other things equal, an engine with advanced timing will run hotter. Along the same lines, are the plugs the same heat range as stock?

Just my opinions - has nothing to do with 430s per se, just motors and getting good information.

John

63-4drpost
12-26-2010, 11:13 AM
start the engine, leave the radiator cap off. put your hand on the top radiator hose as the engine warms up. you will feel the hose warm as the thermostat opens. First thing i do with a heating problem is fill the radiator with water, then pull off the lower hose quickly. the water should gush out as fast as the outlet will allow. If not, the radiator is restricted. Go buy a $150.00 aluminum racing radiator, easy to mount. Regardless of what anyone tells you about even warm-up and all that,, take those junk thermostats out of the block where the water pump mounts to the block. The mercury dealer in town here took them out if my dad's 1958 383 Merc when it was 2 years old. did not need them then, do no need them now!!
If you had the heads off the engine, it is possible the head gaskets were installed with the water passage hole to the front?? Just use basic trouble shooting, take the good hints the other guys on this site gave you, keep at it, nothing that time and money can't fixx!!!!!!!!!!

spujia
12-27-2010, 03:35 AM
The jury is in!

I opted to replace the 195 deg thermostat with a 160 deg. 180 deg is OEM.

I also installed the aftermarket temp gauge. As I watched, the motor warmed up to 160 and stayed there... A little climbing here and there but right back down with some RPM.

I guess the verdict is that the "P" sits at about 195 deg (where the old thermostat opened), which makes sense if it tops out at 220 or so.



Steve, why not try a 180* or a 160* thermostat? They're only a two bucks and commonly available. I believe Thunderbirds came from the factory with 180* 'stats. That would explain why your gauge reads 'hot'.

All in all, this was simply a matter of the 195 thermostat - 100 points for simplyconnected - nailed it on the head!

Thanks again for the great info and help, some of which kept me up at night thinking about gaskets backwards and all - scary stuff.

scumdog
12-27-2010, 04:30 AM
. Regardless of what anyone tells you about even warm-up and all that,, take those junk thermostats out of the block where the water pump mounts to the block. The mercury dealer in town here took them out if my dad's 1958 383 Merc when it was 2 years old. did not need them then, do no need them now!!!!!!!

Your motor probably won't thank you for that - especially if a lot of you driving is trips of five miles or less, the motor will be running too cool too often.

You oil gets contaminated and your piston/ring/bore life will be lasting a lot less time than it could.

And fuel consumption will be up - (if you worry about that sort of thing)

63-4drpost
12-27-2010, 05:52 PM
i use a cheap racing aluminum radiator, 4 blade fan, no shroud. No thermostat at all(anywhere) , NEVER EVEN GETS WARM!! I used ti have an engine rebuilding shop in the 80's, almost always replaced the radiator with a new engine. You guys are making this very difficult for the guy!

simplyconnected
12-27-2010, 09:09 PM
Steve, I am very glad your problems are put to bed. I didn't mean to scare you about gaskets installed backwards, but... you know... many of these cars were in the hands of novice mechanics, still learning the trade. In fact, 'inexperience' is our biggest fear. When something goes wrong and it isn't fixed properly, the first thing that happens is, an owner will sell his problems to an unsuspecting buyer who may not experience ill effects for months.

From my perspective, I must assume nothing and suggest 'most likely solutions'. These cars ran just fine when they were new and they've lasted 50+ years. This is by design, not mistake. They should run just as well when properly maintained.

63-4drpost and Scumdog, you guys are a riot.
I've never seen a "cheap" aluminum radiator. They usually run $400 around Detroit (plastic ones are cheap at $125).

And Tom, we're talking about San Diego, California, where they enjoy the finest weather in the entire USA (I wish I could give them a foot of my snow right now). In the city (like around here) everything is within two miles of my house. The wife's Escape never goes far enough to heat the passengers. That's why I got her 'remote start' for Christmas this year. Does it shorten engine life? Oh, well...

I don't think her oxygen sensors ever kick in during any of our Michigan winter months. I know her radiator fan doesn't go on.

Steve's concern was, 'overheating', which will kill an engine. Given the choice, I'd rather run my engine too cold than too hot. But hey, a good thermostat should keep that under control all the time.

Howard Prout
01-06-2011, 01:42 PM
I took the water pump off Old Betsy this morning and lo and behold the water diverters are there. I had hoped they were not and that was the cause of my overheating problem but now I have ruled that out. I had forgotten that I had to loosen off the AC compressor bracket to get at the lower left water pump bolt. But those bolts were easy to get to at. Just a nuisance having to do so.

So now I have to look for other factors that could be causing the overheating. My vehicle did not have AC originally - I added it. According to the MPC the water pump impellers for AC are slightly deeper than non AC impellers (1.00" vs. 0.90"). Is this enough of a difference to cause overheating? BTW, my vehicle only overheats on hot humid days in heavy traffic. I am using a five-blade fan, would a six bladed fan make much of a difference?

tbird430
01-06-2011, 01:59 PM
I took the water pump off Old Betsy this morning and lo and behold the water diverters are there. I had hoped they were not and that was the cause of my overheating problem but now I have ruled that out. I had forgotten that I had to loosen off the AC compressor bracket to get at the lower left water pump bolt. But those bolts were easy to get to at. Just a nuisance having to do so.

So now I have to look for other factors that could be causing the overheating. My vehicle did not have AC originally - I added it. According to the MPC the water pump impellers for AC are slightly deeper than non AC impellers (1.00" vs. 0.90"). Is this enough of a difference to cause overheating? BTW, my vehicle only overheats on hot humid days in heavy traffic. I am using a five-blade fan, would a six bladed fan make much of a difference?

I thought you already said earlier in this thread you had a six blade fan?

"...I have a triple core radiator, a six blade fan and a fan shroud!"

What is your base timing set at? Have you checked to make sure #1 piston at TDC gives you 0 degrees on your harmonic balancer? Does you vaccum advance on the distributer work?

-Jon in TX.

simplyconnected
01-06-2011, 08:32 PM
Howard, you're right to look at it as a whole system. Water needs to flow freely, and air must exchange heat easily.

I've seen three-core radiators block so much air... a two-core flowing freely beats a blocked three-core. I'm not disrespecting the three-core, but there is a reason they don't do four-core. See my point? And if your coolant isn't flowing inside the cores, air flow is meaningless. If I carry a radiator into my engine build shop, they flow check it for free. I gotta believe your area offers the same service.

After your radiator checks out, it's easy to flow check your engine. I would do it without a thermostat, first.

Harbor Freight sells infrared thermometers for about US$40. Just point and shoot from a distance, and it will display surface temperature. Check this out. (http://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-laser-thermometer-96451.html)

Which preset thermostat are you using? If your engine speed is always at idle, consider using an undersized pulley. It will increase the pump speed and water flow. - Dave

scumdog
01-06-2011, 08:39 PM
63-4drpost and Scumdog, you guys are a riot.
I've never seen a "cheap" aluminum radiator. They usually run $400 around Detroit (plastic ones are cheap at $125).

And Tom, we're talking about San Diego, California, where they enjoy the finest weather in the entire USA (I wish I could give them a foot of my snow right now). In the city (like around here) everything is within two miles of my house. The wife's Escape never goes far enough to heat the passengers. That's why I got her 'remote start' for Christmas this year. Does it shorten engine life? Oh, well...


Steve's concern was, 'overheating', which will kill an engine. Given the choice, I'd rather run my engine too cold than too hot. But hey, a good thermostat should keep that under control all the time.



My final comment on this is: if no thermostat is needed why would car-makers ever bother to put them into just about every motor made for the last 60+ years ????

Howard Prout
01-06-2011, 09:11 PM
I thought you already said earlier in this thread you had a six blade fan?

"...I have a triple core radiator, a six blade fan and a fan shroud!"

What is your base timing set at? Have you checked to make sure #1 piston at TDC gives you 0 degrees on your harmonic balancer? Does you vaccum advance on the distributer work?

-Jon in TX.

It seems I can't count consistently - I guess old age is taking its toll. I don't know why I thought I had a six blade fan - I don't. The original one was four blade. When I installed the AC, I went to a five blade fan. I have thought about a six blade fan before but never got around to buying one.

Jon, to answer your other questions, the timing is set at about 6 deg BTDC - any more and it will ping. The harmonic balancer and crank are in synch and the vacuum advance works as it should. And to answer Dave's queations, the rad is free flowing and the block is clean.

I wish I had used an infra-red gun to check the temperature gradient across the rad, as has been suggested a few times, before I took the system apart but it's too late for that on this go-round.

The engine only overheats on hot humid days at low speeds - never a problem on the open road. On thinking back to when the problem first arose, I think it may have been after I installed the AC system. Although the condenser is clear of any debris, I now think that not enough air is getting through a low speed. So how can I increase air flow at low speed?

One option I am thinking of trying something like a Flex-a-Lite 1818 seven blade fan, but at 2 3/8" deep, I'm not sure it will fit. Another option is using a thermostatically controlled auxillary electric fan. Or both. There isn't much room between the AC condenser and the grille so I don't know if it is possible to get one in there. Has anybody installed an electric auxillary fan on a 430 with AC? If so, what did you use?

PS - it does seem rather odd to be discussing an overheating problem when the temperature outside is below freezing and it is snowing!

simplyconnected
01-06-2011, 09:17 PM
... if no thermostat is needed why would car-makers ever bother to put them into just about every motor made for the last 60+ years ????If you live in Michigan, you would need one real badly. Remote Start installations are backed up three weeks, here. Without a thermostat, our engines would take forever to produce enough heat to deice the windshield, and the driver would be eternally cold. It's -6.6*C right now. Ask Jed how cold it gets by his place in Minnesota.

Years ago, we got a complaint (from old folks) that full-sized Ford Crown Victoria's and Mercury Marquis's weren't getting hot fast enough. So, Ford ran the heater core inlet hose off the rear of the RH head on our 5.0L engines. That got warm water to the heater sooner, but the coolant never reached thermostat temp. That scheme didn't last long. On average, our cars take about 2.5 miles to come up to heat. - Dave

simplyconnected
01-06-2011, 09:24 PM
...If your engine speed is always at idle, consider using an undersized pulley. It will increase the pump speed and water flow.It will also make your fan rotate faster.

63-4drpost
01-08-2011, 10:28 AM
OMG I remind myself of Jackie Gleason in the Honeymooners,, "I got a BIIG mouth!
sorry for the stupid way i say things in my posts, just my off-beat form of humor. My wife seldom laughs at it anymore(my humor).Henry

Howard Prout
01-12-2011, 06:06 AM
One option I am thinking of trying something like a Flex-a-Lite 1818 seven blade fan, but at 2 3/8" deep, I'm not sure it will fit.
I installed a Flex-a-Lite 1818 fan yesterday. The only problem was that it is deeper than the original fan and had to be set out from the engine about an extra 1/4". I used two washers for spacers. The first was a one inch diameter washer that went between the AC pulley and the original spacer. This washer had to have holes drilled to accomodate the fan bolts. The second washer was 5/8" and went between the original spacer and the new fan. This washer had to have notches made to accomodate the fan bolts. There is enough room between the fan and the rad and it fits well within the fan shroud. I also had to get four new 5/16" x 3" bolts to accomodate the extra depth. So now I'll have to wait six months until we get some 100 deg. F. weather to see if this provides enough cooling.

Howard Prout
02-12-2011, 08:53 PM
In addition to installing a new flex fan, I also had the top half of the fan shroud chrome plated. I also made a cover for the top of the radiator and had it chrome plated as well. If you look closely at the pictures, you can see the filler piece between the nose and the rad, then the rad cover and the the fan shroud.

BTW, something I hadn't noticed when installing the new fan is how close it comes to hitting the expansion tank - as can be seen in the first picture. I knew from rotating the fan by hand after it was installed that it didn't hit anything but I didn't look at the clearance with the expansion tank. However it is a flex fan so as the engine speed increases the distance between the fan blades and the expansion tank will increase.

Howard Prout
06-06-2011, 08:47 PM
So far, so good. We haven't had any really hot days so far but the engine temp has stayed where it should be. One of the side effects I hadn't expected from the flex fan was the moan - it is quite noticeable at above 2000 rpm or 60 mph. Probably more so for me as I have the convertible top down as much as possible.

YellowRose
06-06-2011, 09:16 PM
Hey Howard! If ya wanna give your engine and cooling system a good test, come visit me! I can easily provide you with temperatures running in the high 90's to low 100's! We were at or pushing 100 again today. We are running 8-10 degrees above normal and have been for several weeks.

As for the moaning you have heard from the flex fan, when running at 60mph or higher, I also hear it! But it is not my flex fan that I hear moaning! It is my wallet, as the gas goes galloping through that engine at those speeds and higher!:eek: Seriously, though, I do not hear any moaning sounds from my flex fan and that might be because I am in a hardtop. If I had a convertible, I might hear it. I wonder if byersmtrco hears that when he is driving with his top down? He has, as I recall, a flex fan on his Tbird also. Does anyone else who has a flex fan hear any moaning from it? Or, like me, is it your wallet you hear moaning at those speeds and higher?:D And guys....Please don't go there as to what else might be causing the "moans" that Howard is hearing!....

Jimz Bird
06-07-2011, 02:43 AM
Hey Howard! If ya wanna give your engine and cooling system a good test, come visit me! I can easily provide you with temperatures running in the high 90's to low 100's! We were at or pushing 100 again today. We are running 8-10 degrees above normal and have been for several weeks.

Gee, nice to have it so cool there Ray. 8:30 AM now and 91. Yesterday 111 - today only up to 109 and tomorrow 113, BUT, low humidity.:D

It will get REALLY HOT when Summer comes.

YellowRose
06-07-2011, 03:33 AM
Geeez, Jim! I didn't realize the East Coast area was getting those kind of high temperatures now! When I saw that post come through email, I figured you had to be in Arizona! Then I brought up the Forum and see that you are in Virginia! We all might be in for a real scorcher this year!

Jimz Bird
06-07-2011, 06:23 AM
Norfolk is home.

I am still playing in the desert just West of Baghdad. :D

Plan to be home sometime in December.

YellowRose
06-07-2011, 12:40 PM
No wonder it is so hot there!:eek: I forgot that you are in Iraq! I was about to call my younger brother who lives in Virginia to see how he was handling the heat! lol.. That comment about there not being much humidity should have reminded me that you are not presently at home. Thanks for jogging my memory cells! Stay safe, my friend and thank you for your service to our country! I am retired Air Force.

Astrowing
08-01-2011, 08:17 PM
Howard,

Are you still happy with the flex fan and shroud on your 430 for cooling? By now you've been at least over 90F as it was that hot when I was up there in July.

Dakota Boy
08-02-2011, 04:25 PM
For what its worth, I've had good luck using Water Wetter coolant additive.

Howard Prout
08-02-2011, 08:56 PM
Howard,

Are you still happy with the flex fan and shroud on your 430 for cooling? By now you've been at least over 90F as it was that hot when I was up there in July.

So far, so good, and we have had some temps in the high 90s. BUT, I didn't do any short start and stop trips or have it idle for any length of time. My guess is that it will overheat under those conditions. After thinking about it a bit more, my guess is that the AC condenser is limiting the air flow through the radiator. I cleaned it very thoroughy when I had the rad out so I know the air passages are not plugged but the fins are spaced quite close together which cold be blocking the air flow to some extent.